Episode 11

Beauty

In this episode we dive into aesthetics, the study of beauty and art. WE have a few digressions here, including one about Van Gogh and another about micro-bears on the moon. Yeah.

But we also talk about:

  • Defining beauty
  • Why Plato didn't appreciate art, and why Aristotle did
  • The radiance of the form
  • How beauty relates to God
  • How beauty relates to truth and goodness
  • How a naturalist would develop a theory of beauty
  • And a few things more
Transcript
Speaker:

Hey, good morning.

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Good morning.

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How you doing?

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Doing well.

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Excited to be talking

about, beauty today.

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This is one that I love to talk about,

but it's very difficult to talk about.

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how come?

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Beauty tends to go beyond our

rational ability to communicate

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the concepts about it.

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It's not that it's irrational,

but it goes beyond rationality.

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And so our words, of course,

are based on rational concepts.

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They don't always do justice

to the ideas that we're talking

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about when we talk about beauty.

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Huh.

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Well, I'm excited for you to

unpack that a little bit more.

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Yeah.

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As we go.

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so why are we talking about beauty then?

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Just to kind of start us off.

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Because it's beautiful, man..

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Has, for me, at least, become the central

part of who I am and what I think about.

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in my religious life.

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So I think when I was young, say in

my teens and twenties, don't know

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if I thought about beauty that much.

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I mean, everyone appreciates beauty, but I

didn't really think about it a whole lot.

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And I think I tended to interact with God.

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more on a conceptual or,

or an intellectual level.

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And I don't think that's the case anymore.

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I think that as I've gotten older, the

idea of beauty, of understanding this

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world, beauty in a certain way, has become

really foundational to who I am as a

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person, but also my relationship with God.

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Wow.

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Do you, do you appreciate art more, and

enjoy that now as you've gotten older?

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Oh yeah.

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A hundred times more.

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Wow.

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What does that look like,

just out of curiosity?

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Well, it looks like I go

to museums a lot more.

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I have a whole shelf or

two full of art books.

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I also, of course, appreciate

natural beauty, even more than I

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did as a, as a child or a teen.

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Yeah, I remember one time, a couple

years walking with you, and you pointing

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out one of the trees on the path.

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And you were like, oh,

this is that kind of tree.

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And you were like, these are the only

places, this is the only place where these

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are in Franklin that you're aware of.

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And I was like, oh, that's so interesting.

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You just appreciated the, the

tree you knew what kind it was.

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And, uh, I feel like hanging

out with you has helped me

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appreciate natural beauty as well.

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More just in trees and animals

and that kind of thing.

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Well, that makes me happy.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Actually, I, don't know if I've shared

that with you before, but I, do feel

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like that's a sincere, like I notice it

a lot more just by spending time with you.

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That makes me very happy.

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Yeah.

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And also, thank you for the, nice

Christmas gift of the Van Gogh book.

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Oh, yeah.

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That's enjoyable to look

through and see, his work.

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Yeah.

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And,, I will say for some reason, Van

Gogh is my favorite visual artist.

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And I'm not sure why.

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I can't really put it into words.

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I have some ideas.

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Maybe we'll talk about that later.

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Since we're here, can

I just ask, like, why?

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You said you can't put it in

words, but here, here we go.

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Well, I'm not sure I

can put it into words.

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One of the things that we'll talk

about today is that art has a way

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of expressing the beauty of the

form or the essence of something in

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a way that's unique to human art.

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And I think

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, some people, some artists are able

to do that in a very unique way.

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And to me, at least,

Van Gogh is that person.

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Other people, other artists as

well, but for me, he does that.

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You don't look at his art and you

say, Oh, that is a beautiful and

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perfect representation of that field

or that countryside or that person.

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To me at least, I see the

essence of that thing.

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Even though, from a technical point of

view, it didn't look exactly like that.

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Yeah.

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it's not realism.

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No.

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And realism is great, but

we have cameras for that.

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Yeah.

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When I look at art, at least for

me, at this stage in my life, I want

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to see the essence of something.

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Okay, cool.

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So beauty for today.

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Yeah, well let me give you an

overview of aesthetics very briefly.

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A lot of philosophers don't

really delve into this at all.

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But I think the first one

that I know of is Plato.

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So, I've been reading against some of

the pre Socratic philosophers and I, I

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have yet to see any of them tackle the

idea of beauty or aesthetics or art.

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But Plato does and then right after

Plato, his student Aristotle, really

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develops, a full system of aesthetics.

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Both of them viewed beauty as

something that points beyond itself.

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Now.

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The big difference between Plato

and Aristotle is that Plato

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diminished the value of human art.

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In his mindset, art was unvaluable.

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Why?

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Well, you have to remember, and

I'm just going to delve into this

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briefly because we should devote

several episodes to Plato's thought.

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It was so influential.

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Not only in philosophy, but in the

Christian worldview and thinking.

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But in Plato's mindset, there

are two realms, as it were.

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There is this spiritual slash intellectual

world, and then there's this physical

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world that you and I exist in right now.

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And this physical, spiritual

world is composed primarily of

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what's called forms or ideas.

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And the best way to think about this

is imagine that you were going to

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create a horse out of, say, clay or

marble, something like that, right?

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So what do you have there?

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You have, according to

Plato, primarily two things.

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You have the form or the idea of the

horse in your mind, and then you have the

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material that you're working with, and

those two things combined create then that

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statue or that figurine of a horse, right?

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And so, his main point Was that

the forms, the ideas of things

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were much more important than the

physical expressions of those things.

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The form of horsiness in your mind is

a million times more important than

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what you're actually able to produce.

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Mm-Hmm.

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And there's a lot of reasons for that.

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But basically the idea is that each

individual represe is gonna be, defective

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because the material you're working with.

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Is not fully, pliant is not fully able

to work with that form to create that.

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I like that, the, the form of hoarseness.

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Yeah.

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In your mind.

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So you've, so you've got these ideals.

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Yes.

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And then you've got the ideal horse

and then every real material horse is.

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Some sort of imperfect

representation of what the, the,

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the perfect horse ideal would be.

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Is that it?

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Yes.

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Because the matter is not able to

fully express the, the idea of horses.

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It has limitations and

that's with everything.

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Yes.

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So that's with, you've got a chair here

and that is somehow a representation of

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the perfect ideal chair that only exists.

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in our minds, perhaps, or in this other?

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In this other realm.

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In this other realm.

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he does not locate them in the

human mind, but they are in

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a separate realm, actually.

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Okay.

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Now, the other reason that a

physical horse is not as valuable

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as the idea of hoarseness is that

the physical horse is going to die.

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So it comes and goes.

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It's a changeable thing, whereas the idea

of hoarseness is eternal and unchangeable.

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That's so interesting.

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But that makes sense why, like, he

would devalue a painting, or a sculpture

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or something like that, because if I

as a human, I'm going to be closer to

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that form than a sculpture of a human.

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Like, that's gonna be a degree

even farther away from what

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that main ideal would be.

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That's exactly right, actually.

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He devalued art because it was a

representation of a representation.

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So if I'm looking at a horse and then

drawing a picture of that or creating a

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statue based upon that horse that I see,

that's another step removed from what's

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really important, the idea of hoarseness.

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So Aristotle is his disciple,

one of his disciples.

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Right.

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And he had a different view on that.

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He did.

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On one important thing he

agreed with Plato here.

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He agreed that any individual thing that

we see here, whether it's a horse or a

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person or whatever, is this combination

of of form or idea and matter.

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So you've got the form matter distinction.

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He agreed with that.

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His difference, though, was

that, form or the idea as

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somehow inherent in that object.

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So it's not off existing in some other

realm, it's within that, and that

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individual representation, say that

horse, is simply the way that it has

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outworked as it combines with matter.

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I'm not saying that quite

right, but that's the idea.

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So, if I draw a picture of a horse that

is, we'll say good because in essence it's

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trying to point at the form of the horse.

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So in and of itself, it has some value

because it's trying to approach that

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form even if it does it imperfectly.

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Yeah, very insightful

because that's exactly right.

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For him, human art is able

to highlight the form.

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even at the expense of reality

because maybe what you're sculpting

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doesn't exactly look like that thing.

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Yeah.

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But you're creating this idealized,

sculpture or painting in order to

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bring out the beauty of that form.

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Now, probably the philosopher that has had

the most influence in terms of aesthetics

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or beauty is going to be Thomas Aquinas.

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Okay, and he comes quite a bit later

and from a different perspective.

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Right.

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So Aquinas is going to

come a long time later.

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about 16 centuries after Aristotle.

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in most of the centuries before then,

Christian thought did not have access

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to most of the writings of Aristotle.

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So they had the writings of Plato,

which dramatically influenced Christian

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thought and Christian theology.

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But they did not have, in that seminal

period, the first ten centuries of

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Christian thought, they did not have

broad access to the writings of Aristotle.

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That's super interesting.

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So that's another future episode, I

think, as we'll get into the, Yeah.

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the influence of

Platonism on Christianity.

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But, so, that was, limited by

archaeological discovery then?

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Won't go into the history of

it, but a lot of the manuscripts

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were lost in the western world.

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but they were preserved in some of

the Arab lands and in the eastern

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land, and then they were rediscovered.

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And that changed everything.

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So, when you look at Augustine,

who up to this point had been

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the most influential Christian

theologian and Christian thinker.

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At least in the West.

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Yes, at least in the West, definitely.

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What you see is a man who, is synthesizing

Plato with Christian thought in the New

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Testament or, or the Bible as a whole.

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When you get to Thomas, who's gonna be in

th century, so in the:

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you get to Thomas, what you find is this

creative and fully worked out synthesis

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of Aristotle with biblical thought.

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Okay, so just to kind of give us a little

bit of a chronological framework here,

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when are these guys alive Plato is

going to be dated about 425 BC to 348 BC.

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So three or four centuries before Christ.

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And then Aristotle is actually

his student, so subtract

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about 30 years from that.

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And then you've got Augustine, who's going

to be the last part of the fourth century.

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So about 350 to 430.

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And then you've got St.

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Thomas, who is right in the

middle of the 13th century.

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So right in the 1200s.

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Okay.

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So St.

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Thomas is picking up then on the writings

you said of, of Plato or Aristotle?

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Aristotle.

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Aristotle, okay.

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No, let's talk about how

Aquinas developed this.

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Okay, okay first of all, he's

going to give a definition, which

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is really not a definition, but

it's as good as you're going to get.

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So he's going to define beauty

as that which being seen pleases.

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Beauty is that which being seen pleases.

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So he doesn't include music in that?

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Well, I think being seen is broader.

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what he's trying to get across

is that it brings you pleasure

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apart from its utility.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So if I'm enjoying a wonderful meal, part

of that is simply because I'm hungry.

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I need food, right?

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In fact, if I'm really hungry, even

a very simple meal say toast and

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cereal is really pleasurable, right?

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Yeah.

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But there are some things that

I don't need, and yet I still

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find very, very beautiful.

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I don't need to see a sunset.

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I don't need to listen to

Bach's, Mass in B minor.

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But I still find those things

beautiful and pleasurable.

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They please me, even though they

don't have a utility for me.

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Ah, okay.

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So that's what he's trying to get across.

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When you experience something and it

brings you great pleasure, apart from

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your need, that's what he says beauty is.

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That's a super interesting definition.

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Okay, so, that which being seen pleases.

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Right.

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Apart from utility.

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Yeah.

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And of course the obvious question

is, alright, so it brings me pleasure.

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Why?

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What is it about that?

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And he would argue, and a lot of this

is then going to be based on Aristotle,

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he would argue that there are primarily

four things that please us when we

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see or experience a beautiful object.

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One is unity, one is proportion,

one is harmony, and the last is the

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radiance of the form or the essence.

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Great.

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Can you unpack each of those?

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Unity.

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What does he mean by that?

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So it brings us pleasure because

it shows or brings forth unity?

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I think what he means is that all the

pieces fit together in the right way.

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And it's very much related

then to the idea of harmony.

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I have a little bit of trouble

understanding the difference he

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makes between unity and harmony.

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But I believe it has this idea

that unity shows how all these

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pieces fit together, and harmony

shows how they all fit together in

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this harmonious or beautiful way.

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And then proportion then

would be something like no

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piece is too big or too small.

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but they're just right and they are

proportionate towards each other.

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Okay, and then radiance of form.

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Yeah, before we get to that, maybe

think of, think of a beautiful face.

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Alright, so we see a beautiful face.

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I see one every morning

when I look in the mirror.

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Oh, wow, okay.

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Well, never mind about that.

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When I look at my wife and I see

a beautiful face, what do I see?

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I see a unity, all the

parts fit together, okay.

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And then there is a proportion.

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So, if she had a nose that was 8

inches long, that would be, in most

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people's mind, a mark against her

beauty, because it's out of proportion.

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And then there's this harmony,

all the pieces fit together.

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If one ear was, 2 inches higher

than the other, when you look at

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someone's face, that's not gonna

be probably beautiful to you.

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So, I think that's where he

was going at with all of those.

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That makes sense.

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Yeah, I can definitely see that.

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The unity.

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As a whole, the face looks right and part

of the way it looks right is that the

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piece is fit to, even, even though an eye

is not an ear, which is not a nose, and

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which is not a mouth, those harmonize.

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There's a, there's a

distinctness, yet there's a unity.

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Yeah.

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In the way that they work together

and their proportions, their sizes,

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their distances that make us kind

of in a split second judge, okay,

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that's a, that's a beautiful face

or that's not a beautiful face.

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Yeah, I think so.

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Or think of a horse.

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It has those same qualifications, right?

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There is a, a unity of

the hoarseness as a whole.

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There is this proportion.

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and there is this harmony

to the body of the horse.

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If you had a drawing or a statue of

a horse, where the neck was way too

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big, Or the legs were way too short.

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We call that a giraffe or a pony.

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Yeah, right.

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Or one eye was larger than the other,

or higher or lower than the other.

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We'd say, okay, that person

probably needs some work there in

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their, in their artistic ability.

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So he's kind of giving a rubric

to how to, how to determine if

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something is beautiful or not.

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But it, I mean, thinking about

it from the, the 21st century.

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In which we have all kinds of, you

know, expressionist art or modern

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art, that this, those may not fit his

necess necessarily fit his criteria.

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No, I don't think he'd be too

pleased with some of the 20th

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century paintings especially.

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Okay.

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But he is, at least he's giving

a framework, which I think is,

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helpful because, even if somebody.

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Doesn't necessarily resonate with

expressionist art or something like

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that if they see a well painted

picture, or they see a landscape,

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or they overlook something like

the Grand Canyon, or something.

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I think that there is a, a beauty

that's intrinsic there, based on

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its unity and proportion, harmony.

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Right.

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And then I think also the last one

plays into that, because sometimes

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this one can overshadow the others.

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But if it's strong enough,

we still find it beautiful.

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And that would be the radiance

of the form or the essence.

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And this one is really hard to describe.

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But again, in his mindset, when you

look at any physical thing, what you

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are looking at is this combination

of the matter, the material that it's

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made out of, whether it's wood, or

ivory, or gold, or marble, or whatever,

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and then the form, the idea in that

person's mind, or as he would put it,

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in God's mind, about what that thing

is, what that thing should look like.

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So that was the big shift between,

say, Plato and Aristotle, and then

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you get into Christian theology.

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They still had, at this point at least,

the idea that there were two realms.

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The realm of forms or ideas

and the realm of matter.

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But the ideas and the forms were not

just in this, realm out somewhere

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that we can't experience and can't

have access to, but rather, they

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are actually in the mind of God.

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Okay.

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That's, that's a really interesting shift.

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Right.

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And therefore, because of that,

it gives this intrinsic nobility

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to these forms, in a way.

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Gotcha.

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That we'll come back to.

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But, so I talked about Van Gogh.

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If you look at Van Gogh just as an

artist, with his sense of, proportion

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and harmony, uh, yeah, you're gonna

have a few strikes against him.

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But at the same time, he and some

of the, impressionists that came a

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little bit after him, I think do such

a wonderful job of showing the form

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or the essence of something, at least

to me, your mileage may vary, that I

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don't really care as much about those.

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Because here I'm seeing something

I don't usually see anywhere else.

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I'm seeing someone who is able to express

in physical ways the form and the goodness

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of this thing that they're looking at.

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Whether that's a person,

or a field, or a mountain.

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So your criteria isn't how well

that thing corresponds to reality.

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Your criteria is exactly what they were

getting after, which is, I don't want

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to just show this, I want to show the

emotion, perhaps, or the, the feel that

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this landscape or person should evoke.

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Right.

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it was called, Impressionism, right?

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that was actually a label given

to it by someone who wanted

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to denigrate the movement.

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I think better impressionism

should be called expressionism.

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Because two things are happening here.

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One, I think for Van Gogh, at least

in some of the early impressionists,

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sometimes he's called an impressionist,

sometimes not, they're trying to

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express Now, I think for some of the

later Impressionists, they're actually

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trying to express how they feel

about that, which is very different.

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We call them both Impressionists,

again, I think Expressionism is a better

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word, but one is trying to express

the beauty of the form or the idea of

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that thing and its meaning and value.

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And the other is more,

much more subjective.

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This is how I feel about this.

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And I think that is the, the really big

shift in art of the last 150 years or so.

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When I'm looking at Van Gogh, I'm

seeing someone who's trying to

400

:

express what's objectively there.

401

:

When I look at some of the later ones,

uh, for example, Monet, but especially

402

:

the people who came in the 20th century,

I'm seeing someone who's trying to express

403

:

their own feelings about what they see.

404

:

Now it could be wrong, I'm not an art

expert, but that's, that's how I view

405

:

the shift in 20th century art especially.

406

:

So you think that there's something just

innately beautiful that Van Gogh's able

407

:

to capture in showing, like, uh, I got

some of his paintings in my head, but

408

:

I don't remember what they're called.

409

:

But there's the one of the man who's

sitting on the chair who's sorrowful.

410

:

Yeah.

411

:

It's very famous.

412

:

Or Starry Night or something, where

he's trying to show the innate, beauty

413

:

of that particular, Let's take the man.

414

:

Who's sitting on the

chair who's sorrowful.

415

:

I think that's one of

the more popular ones.

416

:

Like, he's trying to not just show kind

of how he's perceiving that, but the

417

:

innate feeling impression of that scene.

418

:

Right.

419

:

He is trying to express

visually what grief is.

420

:

Yeah.

421

:

Or when you see Starry Night.

422

:

Probably his most famous painting.

423

:

And I won't quibble.

424

:

To me it's not necessarily

my favorite out of his.

425

:

But it's a great painting.

426

:

Obviously, the stars were not that large.

427

:

They did not swirl like that.

428

:

But he is creating this scene where

he is trying to get at the beauty of

429

:

that beyond what a photograph or a

hyper realistic painting could do.

430

:

Yeah.

431

:

And it got me back to Aquinas.

432

:

I think Aquinas would be okay with that.

433

:

I think I'm okay with that because I

feel like there is some objective worth

434

:

or beauty or value in what he's seen.

435

:

And he's trying to convey that.

436

:

There are some things that

express the radiance of the form.

437

:

Talk about natural beauty.

438

:

I'll shift back to that for

a minute instead of art.

439

:

I believe when we look at the

natural world, we see, often,

440

:

unity and proportion and harmony.

441

:

But even more than that, we see the

radiance of something beyond itself.

442

:

Maybe not a form, but an idea

of something very, very real.

443

:

And, for me at least, those are all

connected to the greatness and the

444

:

wonder and the mystery of God himself.

445

:

That this physical world that we

see has this inherent beauty and

446

:

wonder because it is the creative

expression of the ultimate mind, the

447

:

mysterious mind, beyond all things.

448

:

So, when I look at, for example, a Grand

Canyon or a mountain, what do I see?

449

:

Among other things, there

is a sense of majesty.

450

:

And there's a sense of putting me

in the right place, the proportion.

451

:

I am a very small thing,

next to a mountain.

452

:

Yeah, that's a very interesting feeling.

453

:

Why, why, why do we have that,

like, where does that come from?

454

:

I don't know exactly where that comes

from, other than the fact that the,

455

:

understanding and experiencing the size

differential between me and this majestic

456

:

thing maybe is an echo of the great

difference It's the great qualitative

457

:

difference between myself and God, that

his majesty and his wonder and his wisdom

458

:

and his power are like that mountain

and I'm like this person standing next

459

:

to it that you can barely even see.

460

:

I think it's probably something like that,

that when we experience the beauty of this

461

:

natural world, we are experiencing that

as pleasurable because the deepest part

462

:

of this, it's made in the image of God.

463

:

And understanding some

things intuitively about God.

464

:

We get that.

465

:

There is a majesty here that is not human.

466

:

It's not limited to me

or even all humanity.

467

:

It goes far beyond that.

468

:

And there's a part of me, there's

a part of me that wants that.

469

:

Hmm.

470

:

I feel like it's tough because

sometimes I feel kind of numb.

471

:

Like, you know, There's a song by a band

that I like that says something along the

472

:

lines of like, they say a picture is worth

a thousand words, but now I just like,

473

:

get a thousand pictures on my phone as

I scroll throughout my day or something.

474

:

It's kind of numb to the effect of

seeing beauty because it's just so

475

:

prevalent through, Instagram or whatever.

476

:

but when I'm not numb to it.

477

:

Yeah.

478

:

there is something about seeing

either things that are really big.

479

:

Like a mountain or even, you know, down

in Brown County State Park, overlooking

480

:

the forest, especially during the fall

with all the colors, or sometimes seeing

481

:

pictures like, you know, the Hubble,

new Hubble telescope images, all the

482

:

color and the movement of the galaxies

that are just like specks, and there's

483

:

a sense of awe there, but then also in

the really small things, like looking

484

:

at the intricate details of a flower,

Or an, insect or something like that,

485

:

that both somehow evoke, an emotion

of like, Wow, that is really good.

486

:

and I think that that, to me points to,

Okay, these are creative expressions

487

:

of a creator god who is innately,

good, and beautiful, and creative.

488

:

And so, there's a way in which

those things radiate, in my mind,

489

:

the glory and majesty of God.

490

:

Yeah.

491

:

Yeah, I get that.

492

:

I'm glad you pointed out about seeing

very small things, because they're

493

:

the other side of the scale, right?

494

:

We see something incredibly small,

and yet We see the beauty in that.

495

:

We see the fineness of the details

and how they all work together.

496

:

Oh, it's incredible.

497

:

Yeah.

498

:

And I think it reminds us again

of our place within this vast

499

:

scale of the universe, scaling

both up and down with wonders.

500

:

Yeah, and I mean, I'm just thinking about

the unity and harmony something like DNA.

501

:

Yeah.

502

:

You know, where it is all unified because

it's one thing, but the complexity That

503

:

works harmoniously together in order to

create the form that DNA is different,

504

:

or did you see the article about the

smallest animal, based on scientific

505

:

criteria that lives on the moon are

those like micro bears things that they

506

:

think are probably were on the space.

507

:

ships that landed.

508

:

Did you see that?

509

:

I did not micro bears.

510

:

They're like tiny little tiny little

microbe, but they look like bears.

511

:

And so they're called, you

should Google it real fast.

512

:

I think they call micro bears,

but, this is going to be an

513

:

interesting podcast listeners.

514

:

You're welcome.

515

:

We're talking about

micro bears on the moon.

516

:

All right.

517

:

I'm Googling it.

518

:

Yeah.

519

:

You see him?

520

:

Um, I haven't seen pictures yet.

521

:

On April 11, 2019, the Israeli spacecraft

Bereshit, I think I'm pronouncing that

522

:

probably wrongly, crashed into the

moon during a failed landing attempt.

523

:

No, its payload included a few thousand

tardigrades, also known as water bears.

524

:

Yeah, that's it.

525

:

Initial reports suggested they could

have survived the crash landing.

526

:

Yeah, see if you can

see some images of it.

527

:

Oh yeah, those are bizarre looking.

528

:

Well, they're, they're microscopic.

529

:

The point of this though, is that

they like the article I read said

530

:

that, what's the point of this again?

531

:

The point is that the article I

read, classified them somehow as

532

:

animals but that they're so small,

the intricacy of the detail of them

533

:

and their resilience that makes

scientists think that they can live.

534

:

In outer space, in the

vacuum of outer space.

535

:

there's something magnificent about

that and beautiful about that.

536

:

That is just intriguing, but at most much

more than that, just like fascinating

537

:

because something like that exists.

538

:

Yeah.

539

:

Yeah, that's interesting.

540

:

Um.

541

:

I'm sorry.

542

:

Maybe a tangent.

543

:

Absolutely a tangent.

544

:

That's all right.

545

:

That's all right.

546

:

So anyway, where were we?

547

:

Okay, so Aquinas, radiance of the form

of the essence, we've talked about that.

548

:

Now, I do want to talk about, oh

by the way, we should also mention

549

:

Psalm 19 talks about this idea.

550

:

The heavens display the glory of God.

551

:

The Skyes show his handiwork.

552

:

And then it goes on to talk about the

beauty of this world, and especially the

553

:

world above us that we see in the sky.

554

:

And then it's interesting that same

Psalm, first half talks about the

555

:

wonders of God's creation, and then

the second half of that goes right

556

:

into talking about the law of the

Lord or God's moral instruction.

557

:

Hmm.

558

:

It seems to tie those in together,

like both of those are an expression

559

:

of who God is in different ways.

560

:

Alright that leads me to

talking just very briefly about

561

:

the three transcendentals.

562

:

What's that word mean?

563

:

so transcendental just means

the things that go beyond.

564

:

So if you remember in the very first

podcast episode we talked about imagine

565

:

if we had a terrarium or an aquarium that

represented the entire physical universe.

566

:

And the question is, is

there anything outside this?

567

:

Is there anything beyond that transcends

the physical universe that we're in?

568

:

And the theist would say, yes, God and

all the things about God, whereas the

569

:

natural says no, the physical cosmos is

all that there is and never has been.

570

:

So the idea of transcendence

means something that is

571

:

here, but it goes beyond.

572

:

Or even in this room.

573

:

You and I are in an office,

maybe 15 by 20, right?

574

:

And yet there are things

that transcend this.

575

:

For example, rationality transcends this,

because even if we weren't here, there's

576

:

still rationality within this world.

577

:

And sunlight transcends this, because

it's coming in that window right now.

578

:

Many things transcend this.

579

:

The point is, just to define

what we mean by transcendence.

580

:

Now, there are three transcendentals

in classical philosophical thought.

581

:

I'm going to be relying on Peter

Kreft, who's a great professor of

582

:

philosophy at Boston University.

583

:

Fascinating.

584

:

Find his lectures, you can listen to

him, and he's much better than I am.

585

:

A thousand times better.

586

:

But anyway, he talks about

the three transcendentals.

587

:

The good, the true, and the beautiful.

588

:

The good transcends this world.

589

:

There is a goodness that exists

before and beyond creation itself.

590

:

And also the true.

591

:

There is a truth.

592

:

that transcends this world that we're in.

593

:

So if you and I were not here, if humanity

isn't here, if humanity as a whole had

594

:

never existed, there is still truth.

595

:

And then lastly, the beautiful.

596

:

So there are things that are beautiful.

597

:

that don't depend upon

us or our judgments.

598

:

They're beautiful in themselves.

599

:

They transcend our judgments, or even our

world, because they're part of who God is.

600

:

So that's what I mean by

the three transcendentals.

601

:

So you're defining transcendental

as they exist even without

602

:

humans needing to exist.

603

:

Yes, or even the universe.

604

:

Or even, oh, even the universe.

605

:

Okay.

606

:

So The beautiful can exist even

without the universe existing?

607

:

Mm hmm.

608

:

Because of the va I mean, I feel

like those are very material things.

609

:

Yeah, okay.

610

:

I see what you're getting at, and

maybe we should say that beauty is a

611

:

transcendental because relies on things

that are not part of this universe.

612

:

Like the mind of God?

613

:

Yeah.

614

:

Okay.

615

:

So that, that's a good pushback on that.

616

:

I appreciate that.

617

:

Yeah, I'm just thinking.

618

:

Well, we're limited by our senses.

619

:

So I perceive beauty based on the,

the physical expressions of that.

620

:

So if there is no material

expression of that, then that seems

621

:

like that would be hard to exist.

622

:

Mm hmm.

623

:

Yeah, I get that.

624

:

Maybe, uh, when we talk about the next

part, that will flesh it out a little bit.

625

:

and again, I'm relying on Peter Krepp

for this distinction, but I think

626

:

it's very helpful, very fascinating.

627

:

Three transcendentals.

628

:

The good, the true, and the beautiful.

629

:

These are recognized all the way

back from Plato, as these things are

630

:

what we are infinitely attracted to.

631

:

We always want these things, and

we're, we don't want just a bit

632

:

of truth, or a bit of beauty.

633

:

We want all that we can experience,

all that we can take in.

634

:

So it's not like food, it's

not like something here that

635

:

we can be satiated with.

636

:

we have an infinite inborn

desire for these things.

637

:

True, the good, and the beautiful.

638

:

Now, he makes a distinction, Peter

Krep makes a distinction between

639

:

the order of being, how these things

relate to each other in the order of

640

:

being, and the order of attraction.

641

:

But they're all based on God and his ways.

642

:

So the order of being

is, first of all, God.

643

:

God and his ways and his

thoughts and his values are the

644

:

ultimate expression of reality.

645

:

They exist apart from

this physical universe.

646

:

If this physical universe stopped

existing, or if it never had existed,

647

:

still God and his ways are there.

648

:

So, he is the ultimate

reality, the ultimate being.

649

:

And then truth, then, is

what corresponds to reality.

650

:

So you have reality, you have

probably different levels of

651

:

reality, different facets of reality.

652

:

A shadow or a dream is not as real as

you, who created the shadow or the dream.

653

:

You are not as real, in a

sense, as God himself, because

654

:

you are contingent upon him.

655

:

But there are, there are real things.

656

:

The true is what corresponds to reality.

657

:

So it's almost like, it's that

reality put into concepts and words.

658

:

The good is the right response to reality.

659

:

And that's, mainly morality?

660

:

It includes morality, but it

goes beyond that, I think.

661

:

So it's like the right response to

reality if something, like family

662

:

is more valuable than that chair?

663

:

So I should value my fam, I should respond

differently to my family than to my chair?

664

:

Yes.

665

:

Kind of thing.

666

:

Okay.

667

:

Let me give you a couple examples of this.

668

:

Okay.

669

:

Thanks.

670

:

Because mine is not good.

671

:

No, it's actually not bad.

672

:

if Christianity is true, you have God in

his ways, and then you have the truth that

673

:

flows out of that reality, including the

ideas, for example, that lying is wrong.

674

:

Okay.

675

:

So the good then is that I try

to be an honest person because of

676

:

that truth, that lying is wrong.

677

:

Or, if God is who he says he is in the

Bible, and he is a being of ultimate

678

:

love, then ultimately I should love other

rational beings that I come in contact

679

:

with, above my own physical desires.

680

:

So I should prefer to love my wife

and do what's right for her rather

681

:

than my own fleshly desires, even if

I were in a position to, say, commit

682

:

adultery or something like that.

683

:

All right.

684

:

So in that case, the truth is

That my wife is infinitely more

685

:

valuable than the momentary

pleasure that that would bring me.

686

:

The good is then realizing

that in my, decision making.

687

:

So I'm not going to put myself in

positions where I'm going to do that.

688

:

Or even, if possible, be

tempted to do that too much.

689

:

Hmm.

690

:

And then, finally, the beautiful

is simply the expression of these

691

:

things within this universe somehow.

692

:

First, I put down the physical

expression, but physical would

693

:

maybe exclude the idea of music.

694

:

Music is physical, right?

695

:

But I think to make it clear,

we'll just say beauty is the

696

:

expression of that reality within

our world that we experience.

697

:

So, things aren't good or

beautiful just because God says

698

:

they are, in this perspective.

699

:

Things are good and beautiful

because God's nature is true

700

:

and good and beautiful, and the

fullest expression of reality.

701

:

And so then I could see how truth

corresponds with God, and then

702

:

good corresponds also with what is

true, which corresponds with God.

703

:

And then beauty corresponds with what

is good, which corresponds with what is

704

:

true, which also corresponds with God.

705

:

There's definitely a flow here

that all kind of corresponds with

706

:

how we think and understand God.

707

:

Yes.

708

:

That's what I'm trying to get at.

709

:

And that, again, I'm

basing this on Peter Kreft.

710

:

This isn't original.

711

:

that's the idea.

712

:

That the transcendentals are linked to

each other and ultimately grounded in God.

713

:

Ultimately grounded in God.

714

:

that is good because that gets at the

heart of what we've been trying to do

715

:

as we've explored different world views.

716

:

Is that there's an internal

coherence and this kind of shows.

717

:

Because what is true is epistemology.

718

:

What is real is metaphysics, and then

what is good and what is beautiful

719

:

are your value theory, your ethics.

720

:

So, I mean, it's So, yeah, God

and his ways would be ontology

721

:

or metaphysics, what is real.

722

:

Yeah.

723

:

And then the true would be epistemology.

724

:

The good would be, probably you would

regard that as value theory, and then

725

:

the beautiful is one part of that.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

If you're gonna make that into,

the different realms of philosophy

728

:

as we've been talking about.

729

:

Yeah.

730

:

Now, what's interesting here, is

that the order of attraction is

731

:

different than the order of being.

732

:

The order of being is God, and then

the true, the good, and the beautiful.

733

:

But the order of attraction

for us, the way that we

734

:

experience things, is reversed.

735

:

We experience the beautiful, which

should then point us towards the good.

736

:

Which should then point us towards

the true, and then through that

737

:

we see and experience God more.

738

:

That's so fascinating.

739

:

Right.

740

:

And I think he's right about this.

741

:

Um, I've thought about this for a while.

742

:

He's a lot smarter than me, so it

took me a while to think through this,

743

:

but I think he's right about that.

744

:

We can get to know God then through

what is beautiful and what is good.

745

:

And what is true.

746

:

And what is true.

747

:

Right.

748

:

Wow.

749

:

The order of being is God and God's ways.

750

:

And then the true, the

good, and the beautiful.

751

:

But the order of our attraction, the

way that we normally experience things,

752

:

is the beautiful and then the good.

753

:

And then the true, pointed to God.

754

:

And that's the way I think

it's supposed to work.

755

:

So that's why when I see something very,

very beautiful in nature especially, I

756

:

see it and I experience it as beauty.

757

:

But at the same time, there

is a goodness to that.

758

:

It's not just that I like the

beauty, it just seems good.

759

:

And it seems right.

760

:

It seems truthful.

761

:

That there is this beautiful

thing that I'm experiencing.

762

:

That points beyond itself to the

majesty of the one who made it.

763

:

So, something like that.

764

:

That, that, I mean, Aristotle seemed to

be pretty spot on then, in that sense

765

:

that those things that are beautiful do

point to something beyond themselves.

766

:

Yeah.

767

:

Did you mean Aristotle or Thomas?

768

:

Well, both, I guess.

769

:

Yeah.

770

:

Thomas is pointing that to God, but

Aristotle is also right in the sense

771

:

that he recognizes that the beautiful

thing points to something beyond itself.

772

:

It radiates some other form.

773

:

Thomas putting that in the nature of God,

I think, is the helpful critique there.

774

:

Or expansion.

775

:

Yeah, that's a good point.

776

:

Thank you.

777

:

Alright, well, we could develop

this more, and maybe we will.

778

:

But I want to talk about the

alternative here from a naturalistic

779

:

perspective because I think it

highlights the beauty and the meaning

780

:

of what we've just talked about.

781

:

But it also shows into sharp relief

the worldview that you get with

782

:

naturalism versus the worldview

that you get with Christianity.

783

:

So, yeah.

784

:

why don't you help unpack,

then, kind of how the naturalist

785

:

perspective would understand beauty?

786

:

All right.

787

:

Most of them don't touch it.

788

:

Really?

789

:

Yeah.

790

:

Because it's a difficult concept,

even in the best of terms.

791

:

But especially once you eliminate God

and transcendence, really, you have a

792

:

difficult time accounting for beauty.

793

:

the standard way, then, that you have

to default to, If you believe, as a

794

:

naturalist does, that there is nothing

that transcends this physical universe,

795

:

that we are here pretty much as an

accidental collocations of atoms, as

796

:

Bertram Russell put it, that we are here

solely by unguided natural selection,

797

:

that's, that's how we are shaped,

including our mind, therefore our sense

798

:

of beauty, then ultimately what happens

Is the only theory of aesthetics that

799

:

you have is that you value some things

because you were shaped by natural

800

:

selection alone to value those things.

801

:

That's the only game in town.

802

:

So how would natural selection

shape people's values?

803

:

especially beauty?

804

:

Yeah.

805

:

Okay, so let's take this in two fold.

806

:

One, why do we find

beautiful people attractive?

807

:

And then secondly, why do we

find natural beauty attractive?

808

:

I think the beautiful people

one, we can understand.

809

:

the argument here that the

naturalist makes is that beauty

810

:

is a visible expression of the

reproductive health of that person.

811

:

Okay.

812

:

So when I see someone beautiful, it's

not that I am valuing them simply because

813

:

they might reproduce more of my genes.

814

:

it's not like that.

815

:

But rather, my mind has been shaped by

generation and generation, thousands of

816

:

generations to value certain traits that

my ancestors found increased fertility

817

:

and evolutionary fitness, therefore.

818

:

So, for example, a woman who has long,

luxurious hair, well, at least in ancient

819

:

times, or previous generations, many times

past, that was a sign of good health.

820

:

And you'd want a, woman

who had good health.

821

:

What we associate with youthfulness, like

clear skin, lack of wrinkles, a firm body.

822

:

Well, obviously, from an evolutionary

perspective, if you're looking at,

823

:

say, a 20 year old woman versus a

70 year old woman, the 20 year old

824

:

woman has those characteristics

and the 70 year old woman doesn't.

825

:

And only the 20 year old woman is actually

going to be able to bear you children.

826

:

So, Your mind has been shaped to

value certain characteristics.

827

:

Even in men.

828

:

Okay.

829

:

I'm a man.

830

:

I can look at another man and view

him as attractive because he has

831

:

certain masculine characteristics that

really show his evolutionary fitness.

832

:

Even though I have no desire,

obviously, to mate with him and could

833

:

produce children with him anyway.

834

:

It's just this idea there are certain,

especially feminine characteristics

835

:

that show high, levels of estrogen

and reproductive fitness in youth.

836

:

And the masculine characteristics

that show high levels of

837

:

testosterone and strength.

838

:

So strength for protection as

well, and things that can help.

839

:

So that's why women might find men

of certain physical physiques more

840

:

attractive, is because over time they've

been conditioned to see, not just that

841

:

they can, help them have children, but

that they can protect them and, Different

842

:

competitive situations or something?

843

:

Okay.

844

:

So they can get more resources

and they can protect.

845

:

Interesting.

846

:

Okay.

847

:

Now, undergirding all this

is not some plan of God.

848

:

It's simply the expression of

your genes to want to reproduce.

849

:

Okay.

850

:

So, the selfish gene, as Richard Dawkins

calls it, and Steven Pinker picks that up.

851

:

The selfish gene within you wants to

reproduce and it will choose things, value

852

:

things, based upon that desire alone.

853

:

Now.

854

:

I said most naturalists don't

really touch the concept of beauty.

855

:

One who does is Steven Pinker.

856

:

So, we've quoted him before.

857

:

he's a professor of psychology right

now, but he's done most of his more

858

:

famous work in the field of science,

popular science and evolutionary theory,

859

:

as an evolutionary biologist So, he's

trying to interpret the human mind.

860

:

Based upon natural selection alone.

861

:

And he does this probably in a more

convincing and certainly more thorough

862

:

way than any other naturalist I've seen.

863

:

he wrote a book called How the Mind Works.

864

:

It's one of the few that I've seen,

actually the only one I've seen from

865

:

a naturalist that delves into the idea

of how natural selection would have

866

:

selected for what we find beautiful.

867

:

for example, this part doesn't necessarily

deal with beauty, but human valuing.

868

:

You have a baby now, don't you?

869

:

We do, yeah.

870

:

I bet you think you love that baby.

871

:

Actually, he's ten months old today.

872

:

Ten months old.

873

:

Well, still a baby.

874

:

Yeah.

875

:

So, I bet you think that you love him.

876

:

I, I'm pretty sure I love him.

877

:

Okay, maybe.

878

:

Stephen Picker writes, We now understand

why many animals, including humans, love

879

:

their children, parents, and grandparents.

880

:

These individuals share the same genes,

and the genes are manipulating the meat

881

:

puppets, that's you, to protect the genes.

882

:

when a mother watching her son enter

surgery wishes she could take his

883

:

place, it's not the species or the

group or her body that wants her to

884

:

have this most unselfish emotion.

885

:

It is her selfish genes.

886

:

So, the reason that you love your

child is because he shares your genes.

887

:

And you are wired by your selfish genes to

want to protect that process by which he

888

:

can pass it down to further generations.

889

:

That's so interesting.

890

:

Yeah.

891

:

And that also comes then

in, in romantic love.

892

:

you would think that maybe You would

view that woman as you would have

893

:

some choice in loving her because

of their internal worth, right?

894

:

Yeah., But Steven Pinker writes that

if your choice was purely rational,

895

:

then the object of your desire

could predict that by the law of

896

:

averages, someone better would come

around sooner or later, and that you

897

:

would dump them like a hot potato.

898

:

But it's clear that your choice is

partly I'm going to read this again

899

:

because I want to get the quote.

900

:

So he says that if your choice were purely

rational, then, quote, then the object

901

:

of your desire could predict that by the

law of averages, someone better would

902

:

come around sooner or later, and that

you would dumb them like a hot potato.

903

:

But if it's clear that your choice

is partly involuntary, partly

904

:

directed to that unique individual

as opposed to that individual's list

905

:

of qualities, that gives your partner

some assurance that you're committed.

906

:

So basically what he's saying is, you

don't really have a choice in choosing

907

:

to love the woman that you love.

908

:

It's also this expression, and it's

mostly involuntary, and that by

909

:

itself, it kind of gives her and you

the assurance that it will stick.

910

:

So it's deterministic based on my biology.

911

:

Yeah, he's pretty deterministic, because

he's a very consistent naturalist.

912

:

That's so interesting.

913

:

But, what's he saying then, that by the

law of averages, sooner or later as my

914

:

wife and I grow older, there is going

to be a younger woman who is more fit

915

:

to bear children than my wife will be.

916

:

But, He's saying that the reason

I don't drop her like a hot potato

917

:

and take up this other woman is why?

918

:

Well, partly because it's not a

voluntary choice that you love

919

:

and are committed to your wife.

920

:

It's not a rational choice.

921

:

It's subconscious.

922

:

It's working on the gene level instead

of the intellectual value level.

923

:

But how does the gene level

help in that situation if I want

924

:

to, uh, what's the right word?

925

:

Propagate my genetics?

926

:

I think he would say that it does

so by creating strong human bonds

927

:

that consistently raise children

and grandchildren over generations.

928

:

Okay, so, so it's more, it's more

about trying to help continue the

929

:

evolutionary fitness of my family because

my son now has my genes, and he still

930

:

needs the family dynamics in order

to grow and be an evolutionarily fit.

931

:

Human who's continuing

to, spread the genes.

932

:

Yes.

933

:

Okay, I mean that's an argument for sure.

934

:

It is.

935

:

That makes sense.

936

:

Yeah, it's an argument.

937

:

I think probably evolutionary theory

about why we value beautiful people

938

:

is stronger than the natural part.

939

:

Um, but again, notice the difference here.

940

:

You are choosing someone because

involuntarily your genes I have latched

941

:

onto that person as the person most

likely at this stage of your life to

942

:

be able to produce a lot of offspring.

943

:

Now that's very different than the

human idea, that when we see someone,

944

:

we have a real choice in that, and

we value them for things beyond

945

:

just their reproductive fitness.

946

:

Yeah, it's kind of, it's, his

perspective is a little cynical.

947

:

It is.

948

:

And he's married, isn't he?

949

:

At least he was.

950

:

I think he's married.

951

:

I have no idea.

952

:

No?

953

:

Okay.

954

:

but I know as a parent of an adopted

child, a lot of this rings false.

955

:

Ah.

956

:

Can you say more?

957

:

Well, yeah.

958

:

Obviously, we have chosen to devote

the incredible amount of resources

959

:

it takes to raising a child, uh, two

biological children and one adopted child.

960

:

And we did that willingly, as

almost all adoptive parents do.

961

:

So that idea of adoption and the altruism.

962

:

of adoption, altruism in general,

is very difficult to explain

963

:

on evolutionary terms alone.

964

:

Yeah, that's interesting.

965

:

But I don't want to digress on that.

966

:

Can, can I just say props to him

for using meat puppet though?

967

:

That's just been in my mind.

968

:

Uh, that's right, right?

969

:

He said meat puppet?

970

:

Yeah.

971

:

He called me a meat puppet?

972

:

Yes, he did.

973

:

And his academic work, that's

what, 600, 700 pages long?

974

:

Yes, and in fact, I think Richard

Dawkins expressed it best.

975

:

I think it was him who said this

verse that your body is just your

976

:

genes way of creating more genes.

977

:

Huh.

978

:

So you are a meat puppet.

979

:

I like that.

980

:

Yeah.

981

:

I like that.

982

:

The puppet master is your genes.

983

:

At first I was thinking the puppet master,

does that point to a puppeteer, like

984

:

a god, but he's, he's not saying that.

985

:

He's just saying that I

am a passive responsive.

986

:

I don't know if you put a passive

responsive, but yeah, the idea

987

:

is basically your body, including

the choices you make are.

988

:

Being puppeteered, is that the right word?

989

:

Yeah, I think so.

990

:

By your, by your genes.

991

:

That's so interesting.

992

:

Your genes desire for

reproduction, specifically.

993

:

What a fascinating, You know what the

thing is though, I I don't mean to

994

:

digress, but there's certainly shades of

truth to wanting to continue to love our

995

:

families, and some of that is certainly

grounded in genes and in, Biology and

996

:

that sort of thing that, yeah, I want

to protect my family because they are

997

:

family and part of family is not just

a societal bond but a genetic bond.

998

:

So I, I could certainly see shades

of truth to their, to their credit

999

:

that there is probably something

working at the genetic level for this.

:

00:50:18,738 --> 00:50:22,068

Yeah, I'm glad you point that out

because I think you're probably right.

:

00:50:22,105 --> 00:50:25,385

there are some parts of this that are

true or they're true to a certain degree.

:

00:50:25,988 --> 00:50:30,848

And remember, for a Christian theist like

you and I, we are able to fit that into

:

00:50:30,848 --> 00:50:32,618

our understanding of reality quite well.

:

00:50:33,108 --> 00:50:37,688

We would just say, this is how God

used part of the human process of

:

00:50:37,748 --> 00:50:39,518

evolution as he guided it along.

:

00:50:39,978 --> 00:50:44,098

So I can be a six day creationist or I

can be a theistic evolutionist, someone

:

00:50:44,208 --> 00:50:45,608

who believes God used that process.

:

00:50:45,938 --> 00:50:47,648

Either way, I'm still a theist, right?

:

00:50:47,838 --> 00:50:48,128

Yeah.

:

00:50:48,168 --> 00:50:49,758

Philosophically, I'm in the same camp.

:

00:50:50,235 --> 00:50:54,395

But if I am An atheist, if I'm a

naturalist, I don't have that option.

:

00:50:55,155 --> 00:50:59,395

This is, natural selection, unguided

natural selection, is the only

:

00:50:59,395 --> 00:51:03,885

game in town for discerning how

we became who we are and why we

:

00:51:03,885 --> 00:51:05,165

value the things that we value.

:

00:51:05,925 --> 00:51:06,375

Interesting.

:

00:51:06,565 --> 00:51:06,965

Interesting.

:

00:51:08,235 --> 00:51:08,785

All right.

:

00:51:08,945 --> 00:51:11,385

One other thing, Steven

Pinker talks about it again.

:

00:51:11,635 --> 00:51:16,437

Full props to him for talking about

this from his perspective when most

:

00:51:16,447 --> 00:51:18,397

naturalists just kind of punt here.

:

00:51:18,957 --> 00:51:22,217

And that is why we value

natural beauty, all right?

:

00:51:22,217 --> 00:51:24,147

And some of this is going

to apply to art as well.

:

00:51:24,732 --> 00:51:28,702

And basically, it's the same mechanism,

just working in a different way.

:

00:51:29,322 --> 00:51:34,122

So the same mechanism is that your

genes want to reproduce themselves

:

00:51:34,322 --> 00:51:37,032

and continue their reproduction on

through many generations, right?

:

00:51:37,647 --> 00:51:38,787

That is the mechanism.

:

00:51:39,577 --> 00:51:42,497

The way it works for natural beauty

is a little bit different than the

:

00:51:42,497 --> 00:51:45,217

beauty of a potential spouse or mate.

:

00:51:46,067 --> 00:51:48,567

But it's the same

naturalistic explanation.

:

00:51:49,117 --> 00:51:51,757

So, he devotes several pages to this.

:

00:51:52,247 --> 00:51:56,751

He says that, for most of human history,

humans evolved on the African savannah.

:

00:51:57,671 --> 00:52:02,754

And that this type of environment,

then becomes associated with what we

:

00:52:02,754 --> 00:52:07,834

desire because it gave evolutionary

advantages to our ancestors.

:

00:52:08,344 --> 00:52:11,604

In other words, the people who

formed what we value today through

:

00:52:11,604 --> 00:52:13,014

those many, many generations.

:

00:52:13,538 --> 00:52:14,628

what advantages are those?

:

00:52:14,668 --> 00:52:16,418

Well, you have wide vistas, right?

:

00:52:16,778 --> 00:52:21,028

So you can see potential predators

coming at you and you can see prey.

:

00:52:22,093 --> 00:52:25,243

So we would now view landscapes as

something kind of innately beautiful.

:

00:52:25,273 --> 00:52:25,753

Exactly.

:

00:52:25,893 --> 00:52:26,203

Okay.

:

00:52:27,023 --> 00:52:27,203

Yeah.

:

00:52:27,203 --> 00:52:33,200

So wide open areas and then, he would talk

about why we value animals and why we find

:

00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:37,530

animals, beautiful, because we eat them or

sometimes we're eaten by them, but either

:

00:52:37,530 --> 00:52:39,140

way, we have to pay attention to them.

:

00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:42,690

And that's the idea that we have

to pay attention to these things.

:

00:52:42,690 --> 00:52:45,420

Therefore, they're kind of

hardwired into our mind that this

:

00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:46,880

is something we want to look at.

:

00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:49,370

And what about flowers?

:

00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,620

Alright, we all find

flowers beautiful, right?

:

00:52:51,930 --> 00:52:55,350

most people do, and again, it's

a very naturalistic explanation.

:

00:52:56,050 --> 00:53:00,126

Well, you have to remember that

in the underbrush, different

:

00:53:00,126 --> 00:53:01,246

plants have different properties.

:

00:53:01,256 --> 00:53:03,646

Some could kill you, some would

heal you, some would feed you.

:

00:53:03,891 --> 00:53:06,620

And they're all going to be

green, except for the flowers.

:

00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:09,311

That's how you're going to distinguish

them, at least at first glance.

:

00:53:09,876 --> 00:53:13,166

Therefore, the more you paid

attention to flowers, the more

:

00:53:13,166 --> 00:53:16,687

likely you were to succeed in that

environment and pass on your genes.

:

00:53:17,057 --> 00:53:19,496

So it's very utilitarian.

:

00:53:19,806 --> 00:53:20,306

Exactly.

:

00:53:20,896 --> 00:53:25,009

Which is interesting because then

it's no longer in the realm of beauty.

:

00:53:25,009 --> 00:53:27,665

it's mostly just, oh well, you

had to pay attention to this

:

00:53:27,665 --> 00:53:30,385

for evolutionary, fitness.

:

00:53:30,652 --> 00:53:31,012

Yes.

:

00:53:31,265 --> 00:53:34,862

Okay, now what about something

like, um, a sunset or the sky?

:

00:53:35,469 --> 00:53:37,679

Yeah, he gives no

explanation at all for that.

:

00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:41,669

I wonder if he would say something like

meteors or, or something like that.

:

00:53:42,099 --> 00:53:44,259

I'm sorry, he does give

an explanation for that.

:

00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:48,719

I remember now, he argued that

dramatic shifts in weather or

:

00:53:48,749 --> 00:53:52,556

cosmological events signaled

something that we had to respond to.

:

00:53:52,566 --> 00:53:56,805

And the more we paid attention to those

things, the more likely we were to

:

00:53:56,825 --> 00:53:58,765

survive and therefore pass on our genes.

:

00:53:59,468 --> 00:54:04,487

he also has a little bit about

why we value mystery and beauty.

:

00:54:04,967 --> 00:54:08,507

So one of the things that most

humans desire or find beautiful

:

00:54:08,507 --> 00:54:10,137

is a winding path, right?

:

00:54:10,837 --> 00:54:15,647

Or a brook that goes into a mountain,

or rolling hills that we can't see past.

:

00:54:16,417 --> 00:54:20,474

And he would say that we value those

things because our evolutionary

:

00:54:20,474 --> 00:54:26,244

ancestors, the ones that had this

sense of seeking out the unknown,

:

00:54:26,674 --> 00:54:28,564

had this evolutionary advantage then.

:

00:54:29,554 --> 00:54:30,294

Oh, interesting.

:

00:54:30,454 --> 00:54:30,704

Yeah.

:

00:54:31,254 --> 00:54:32,684

Now, a couple of things about this.

:

00:54:33,254 --> 00:54:35,564

First of all, this is a just so story.

:

00:54:35,644 --> 00:54:39,639

And what I mean by that You're making

up an explanation for something that

:

00:54:39,649 --> 00:54:42,069

you could in no wise test or prove.

:

00:54:42,529 --> 00:54:46,160

In fact, he's, he was called out by

this, by other people of his same camp

:

00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:52,120

saying, there's no way we can know how

millions of years ago individuals or

:

00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,780

groups lived on the savanna, what they

valued, what they chose, what they did.

:

00:54:56,860 --> 00:54:58,800

There's no scientific way to test this.

:

00:54:59,450 --> 00:55:04,176

He quotes some study saying that

children prefer savannas above

:

00:55:04,176 --> 00:55:06,706

other types of environments

that they wanted to travel to.

:

00:55:07,106 --> 00:55:08,936

But he gives no citation for that at all.

:

00:55:08,986 --> 00:55:10,956

So there's no way to test that hypothesis.

:

00:55:11,386 --> 00:55:15,183

In any case, he, right after he

concedes that adults like mountains

:

00:55:15,233 --> 00:55:19,613

and woodlands just as much, he says,

well, maybe we experience those more.

:

00:55:19,933 --> 00:55:23,663

So again, he's just giving these

suppositions on why these things might be.

:

00:55:24,153 --> 00:55:27,453

But I think from your own experience,

I mean, think of the people you know.

:

00:55:28,608 --> 00:55:30,918

If you ask them, where do you

want to spend a two week vacation?

:

00:55:32,288 --> 00:55:35,058

What percentage of them are

going to say, on a savanna?

:

00:55:36,498 --> 00:55:42,128

I feel like it's like, it's like, would

you prefer, yeah, mountains or the beach?

:

00:55:42,168 --> 00:55:42,508

Right.

:

00:55:43,538 --> 00:55:44,458

Savanna, yeah, yeah.

:

00:55:44,538 --> 00:55:48,551

A woodland lake, a mountain, a beach.

:

00:55:48,641 --> 00:55:49,621

I mean, it's going to be split.

:

00:55:49,631 --> 00:55:51,291

That's the, that's the interesting thing.

:

00:55:51,631 --> 00:55:53,851

Right, but I don't think most

people are going to choose savanna.

:

00:55:55,271 --> 00:55:56,501

Yeah, that's, that's probably true.

:

00:55:57,011 --> 00:55:57,741

I'm not going to.

:

00:55:58,471 --> 00:56:00,161

I, I would choose the mountains.

:

00:56:00,451 --> 00:56:00,791

Same.

:

00:56:01,121 --> 00:56:01,411

Yeah.

:

00:56:01,581 --> 00:56:03,271

More of a mountain guy than a beach guy.

:

00:56:03,351 --> 00:56:04,681

My wife would choose the beach.

:

00:56:05,451 --> 00:56:07,674

and again, even the realms he talks about.

:

00:56:08,104 --> 00:56:11,014

We prefer wide open vistas

so that we can see predators.

:

00:56:11,424 --> 00:56:15,874

And yet, just a few pages later, we

prefer places that are unknown to us

:

00:56:15,874 --> 00:56:17,744

like rolling hills that we can explore.

:

00:56:18,394 --> 00:56:19,534

Yeah, but what about the predators?

:

00:56:19,534 --> 00:56:19,984

Exactly.

:

00:56:20,134 --> 00:56:20,844

That's what I was thinking.

:

00:56:20,844 --> 00:56:23,509

And Yeah, there's something

hiding behind that tree.

:

00:56:24,219 --> 00:56:25,169

Yeah, exactly.

:

00:56:25,179 --> 00:56:30,489

So, it's a nice experiment to play with

in your mind, but there's no way that you

:

00:56:30,489 --> 00:56:32,419

could offer any kind of definitive proof.

:

00:56:32,678 --> 00:56:37,066

But even if you could, even if you

could prove, or even if you had reasons

:

00:56:37,066 --> 00:56:39,106

to believe that, well, you have that.

:

00:56:39,324 --> 00:56:43,024

Is an understanding of beauty

that is entirely utilitarian.

:

00:56:43,444 --> 00:56:47,544

And utilitarian in the most narrow sense

of being able to pass on our genes.

:

00:56:48,306 --> 00:56:51,106

Yeah, which doesn't resonate

so much, so well with me.

:

00:56:51,596 --> 00:56:52,536

I don't think many people.

:

00:56:52,946 --> 00:56:56,866

I mean, to tell someone that they

value sunsets because our great

:

00:56:56,866 --> 00:57:01,091

ancestors, took notice of cosmological

events, and therefore they were

:

00:57:01,091 --> 00:57:03,231

more fit, or they value flowers.

:

00:57:03,741 --> 00:57:08,280

Not because of their inherent beauty,

but because maybe some ancestors, a

:

00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,615

few thousand generations ago, paid

attention to flowers, and therefore, they

:

00:57:12,615 --> 00:57:14,285

increased their evolutionary fitness.

:

00:57:14,775 --> 00:57:15,574

Or even broader.

:

00:57:16,065 --> 00:57:17,555

That you love your spouse.

:

00:57:18,705 --> 00:57:20,955

For evolutionary reasons only.

:

00:57:21,015 --> 00:57:22,285

That you love your child.

:

00:57:22,645 --> 00:57:25,815

Only because you're a meat puppet

being manipulated by your genes

:

00:57:25,995 --> 00:57:27,695

to pass on your genes more fully.

:

00:57:28,005 --> 00:57:31,444

I was just thinking that's not a very

romantic thing to say to your spouse.

:

00:57:31,754 --> 00:57:34,844

No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go there

for Valentine's Day is coming up.

:

00:57:34,874 --> 00:57:35,924

Probably don't.

:

00:57:36,194 --> 00:57:37,264

Honey, why do you love me?

:

00:57:37,264 --> 00:57:44,784

Well Because But, the reason I want to

highlight this And again, I give full

:

00:57:44,784 --> 00:57:48,840

props to Steven Pinker for actually

putting it down on paper, even though

:

00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,738

I think he's fundamentally wrong.

:

00:57:51,218 --> 00:57:53,008

He does what most naturalists don't.

:

00:57:53,303 --> 00:57:56,603

But I think by doing so, he

highlights the beauty of the

:

00:57:56,603 --> 00:57:58,703

Christian understanding of beauty.

:

00:57:59,043 --> 00:58:02,316

Though we may not understand

how it works exactly.

:

00:58:02,573 --> 00:58:06,293

Even though I certainly cannot explain

it as well as it could be explained.

:

00:58:07,133 --> 00:58:13,283

I think we get the things we experience

around us that are beautiful, are

:

00:58:13,283 --> 00:58:18,610

beautiful objectively, they have beauty

in themselves, not just because in some

:

00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:23,190

way they increase my reproductive fitness,

but because they're beautiful things.

:

00:58:24,010 --> 00:58:26,590

They're beautiful things

because beauty is a real thing.

:

00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,870

that transcends my life and my

desires and my genes desires.

:

00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:37,680

It's an expression somehow, in some

way, of the wonder and the grandeur

:

00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,470

and the majesty of God who made

all things, including those things

:

00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:43,850

that we find especially beautiful.

:

00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:46,260

So that's the difference.

:

00:58:46,330 --> 00:58:50,551

And that's why, to me, even if I had

a thousand reasons for doubting God's

:

00:58:50,551 --> 00:58:55,186

existence, and even if Naturalism or

atheism was compelling on other grounds.

:

00:58:55,826 --> 00:58:56,936

I don't think I could get there.

:

00:58:57,546 --> 00:59:00,826

Because it doesn't ring true to

the deepest parts of who I am.

:

00:59:01,623 --> 00:59:06,685

Yeah, you see something beautiful and

you know in your soul that there is

:

00:59:06,685 --> 00:59:08,535

something innately beautiful about that.

:

00:59:08,965 --> 00:59:09,225

Yeah.

:

00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:11,790

Utilitarian.

:

00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:12,190

Yeah.

:

00:59:12,300 --> 00:59:16,810

And yes, and I'm not just disregarding

facts for desire, because like I

:

00:59:16,810 --> 00:59:20,010

said, I don't think you can establish

the naturalistic viewpoint at all.

:

00:59:20,530 --> 00:59:22,240

There's no proof or evidence.

:

00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,830

You can't run science experiments

to prove most of these assertions.

:

00:59:26,295 --> 00:59:28,735

I'm not rejecting facts for desire.

:

00:59:29,365 --> 00:59:34,374

I am looking at two different ways Of

understanding beauty within this world.

:

00:59:34,734 --> 00:59:36,614

Neither of which can really be proven.

:

00:59:36,894 --> 00:59:42,094

And I'd say one of those is

lovely, and meaningful, and moving.

:

00:59:43,364 --> 00:59:45,414

And the other is shallow

and reductionistic.

:

00:59:46,924 --> 00:59:49,619

And I'm gonna choose the

one that is beautiful.

:

00:59:49,889 --> 00:59:51,729

The one that gives beauty meaning.

:

00:59:52,801 --> 00:59:53,701

So that's where I am.

:

00:59:54,551 --> 00:59:54,801

Cool.

:

00:59:55,163 --> 00:59:55,673

That's good.

:

00:59:56,043 --> 00:59:56,703

That's really good.

:

00:59:57,225 --> 00:59:58,815

Well, any other thoughts or questions?

:

00:59:59,015 --> 01:00:01,715

My, my mind is drained now.

:

01:00:02,490 --> 01:00:03,170

I don't think so.

:

01:00:03,260 --> 01:00:05,530

I think this was really good

and helpful, so thank you.

:

01:00:06,190 --> 01:00:06,510

Yeah.

:

01:00:06,734 --> 01:00:10,004

I think sometime we'll come back to

the idea of the three transcendentals.

:

01:00:10,004 --> 01:00:11,024

we've talked about today.

:

01:00:11,314 --> 01:00:11,554

Yeah.

:

01:00:11,744 --> 01:00:14,474

Aristotelian philosophy

or Platonic philosophy.

:

01:00:15,264 --> 01:00:15,534

Right.

:

01:00:15,554 --> 01:00:16,764

Probably get some more into St.

:

01:00:16,764 --> 01:00:17,284

Thomas.

:

01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,535

Yeah, but for now I would just

say, enjoy the beauty of the world

:

01:00:21,535 --> 01:00:25,195

around you, whether it's in a

person's face, a person's action,

:

01:00:25,775 --> 01:00:29,345

whether it's in the music that you

hear, or the sunset you experience.

:

01:00:29,965 --> 01:00:30,615

Enjoy them.

:

01:00:31,375 --> 01:00:32,935

Enjoy God in them.

:

01:00:33,195 --> 01:00:34,535

And enjoy them in God.

:

01:00:35,330 --> 01:00:35,700

That's all.

:

01:00:37,890 --> 01:00:38,280

Thank you.

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