Episode 9

Ethics part 2: Paganism and Eastern Thought

Are some things always right or wrong, or is ethics relative? What makes something right or wrong?

Last episode we saw how theism and naturalism try to answer those questions. This week paganism and eastern thought get their say.

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio)-1:

Well, let's go on to.

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Eastern thought we'll

spend less time here.

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Can I it actually

transitioned us to paganism.

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Sure.

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Okay.

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So we've been talking a

little bit about kind of this.

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Difference between monotheism and

secularism or naturalism materialism.

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So monotheist wet ground, their ethics in.

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The character or nature, personhood.

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Of God.

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So wondering.

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About the polytheistic perspective.

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Do they ground their ethics also

in nature, character of the gods.

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Or what does that.

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Look like how do polytheists

understand the question of ethics?

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Yeah, for the most part, they do

not grounded in the nature of God.

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And I think we're probably most

familiar with the Greek myths.

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But I think the other.

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MIS systems or politics

or systems I've seen.

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Kind of align with this.

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So when you think about the Greek

myths of the mini gods, right?

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Izu some moral character.

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I don't know.

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Well, he's the highest boast important

God, the chief got a the Olympic Pantheon.

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and yet he is consistently

acting immorally.

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He cheats on his wife.

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In so many stories.

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He deceives and he is deceived.

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He displaced favoritism.

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Towards others for no reason.

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Other than that, they do

certain things for him.

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So he is not a God that humans are

encouraged to emulate in their morality.

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Okay.

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But instead.

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How with theistic morality.

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Usually works like this.

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That these guys exist within the

universe and they have powers.

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To influence our lives

for good or for bad.

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And so what morality consists of.

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Religiously at least.

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Is that you want to do the things that.

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Either, please, those gods.

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Or at least keep them from blasting.

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You.

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And that involves

offering them sacrifices.

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It involves, offering the

right kind of, worship.

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And, participating in certain

religious or cultural festivals.

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and very often it also

includes Things like not.

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Choosing an adult tree or choosing lying.

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One of the main things, at

least in Greek thought is.

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Not to go beyond the bounds or

the limits set for, for yourself.

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Especially in terms of your

relationship as a human toward the gods.

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Hubris is the word.

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That's usually describing this The

guys really get pissed off when a man

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has hubris, who thinks he's too big

for his human britches as it were.

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Right.

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That really gets you in trouble.

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So.

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It's almost a pragmatic morality.

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For the most part.

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And again, we're painting a very broad

brushes, but the idea of pragmatism

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Morality being that the gods.

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Have influence over my affairs.

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And when I do certain things, It

achieved certain results from their

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part that they blessed me or help

me or don't blast me at least.

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And so when I do certain

things, they do certain things.

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It's a transactional.

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approach.

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to moral questions, at least

in the religious sphere.

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Now again.

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They also have their own cultures are

going to define things on right and wrong.

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But philosophically and

religiously, that seems to be

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how it works for the most part.

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Gotcha.

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I like that phrase.

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Ah, help that the God's blessed yet.

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Bless you.

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Or at least don't blast you.

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Yeah.

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That's good.

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So would you say that.

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Within that worldview.

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There is.

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Objective.

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Morality.

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I think most people

would say that there is.

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I'm not sure if you'd be able to

get to a rationale for that, though.

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I don't know how you would.

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I guess it would depend

upon the particular.

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Politics or religion or Peggy,

this, your culture that you were in.

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But for example, if you were a Greek.

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you certainly wouldn't get

the standard of morality.

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From Zeus.

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He does things that are wrong.

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But what is the principle outside in

silk, but makes things right or wrong.

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I'm not sure I've ever

seen that in duress.

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Hmm.

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So I'm not sure.

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Yeah.

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That's one of the challenges of

this whole thing is that there is so

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much variance within each of these.

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Worldviews.

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You use the word.

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pragmatists.

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Because they're trying

to appease the gods.

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That's not how monotheism is.

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Yeah.

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I just wonder if you're

going to push back on that.

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Yeah.

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one of the things you have to keep your

mind as we talk about any of these is that

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there is a way it's supposed to work and

there's a way that it usually does work.

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That none of us are consistent.

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And that's certainly the case in

all these ethical systems, right.

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So we can be inconsistent

with good or bad principles.

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And I think we have to be honest and say,

sadly, that many people in monotheistic

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religions do function that way.

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In their relationship with God that.

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They feel if they do certain things

for God, God will bless them.

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And save them and help them.

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And I get that.

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It's hard to escape in

our human condition.

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But when you go deeper

and when you look at the.

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better teachers within

those traditions, you find.

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That that's not the case.

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They've moved beyond that.

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Transactional relationship.

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With God.

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And that they come to the place where the

honestly, desire to please this God heart.

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From what he does with them or not.

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That's the goal.

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Do we all get there?

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No.

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But it's a different goal.

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I feel like breaking out of that.

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Transactional system is hard

just because we live our lives.

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A lot by that principle,

at least in society.

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Yeah.

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I'll scratch your back.

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If you scratch mine or I won't

hurt you, if you don't hurt me and

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then of course, economically we're

in a very transactional system.

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So, but we can see.

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In a relational.

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Analogy.

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That's not how it's really supposed to be.

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Are not within the best interest in a

marriage or in a parent child context.

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Yeah, I'm glad you brought that out.

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In most of our interactions

With people, we live to some

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degree transactionally, right?

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So it's hard to get away from that.

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But we have an understanding that

at least in some relationships.

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It shouldn't be that way.

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Yeah.

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And I think that points is

at the heart of the deepest

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relationship between the creator.

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And us The one whom he created.

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And, In Christianity at least.

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Oh, I'll just narrow this down.

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what you see in the new Testament,

what you see in the gospel.

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Is God does not treat us transactionally.

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But it has offered us grace.

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Grace is something that goes beyond karma.

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It goes beyond transaction.

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It is God's free

determination to treat us.

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Not on the basis of what we

deserve or w what we have done.

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With simply out of love

and towards what we need.

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And the goal of that.

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Is that we then become the

kind of people who do that.

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With each other as well.

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And towards God.

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That we respond to him freely.

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You know, he doesn't have a need.

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So that, that part is different.

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But that same.

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Freedom.

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of a husband and wife who know

that they don't have to perform.

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They don't have to do it.

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Anything, right.

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They don't have to meet expectations.

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They can just be loved and.

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Those kinds of relationships,

I think point towards.

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The deepest heart of the gospel.

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Yeah.

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And wonder if.

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There's something in people that wants.

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That freedom as well in

other contexts as well.

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So, for example, when you think about the

legal structure of the United States, the

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goal isn't that people don't break the

law just because if they break the law and

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they'll get punished, like the goal is.

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Are there to be a system in which people.

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Can act freely, but use their

freedom to make good choices that

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don't hurt themselves or others.

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Right.

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So there's a desire to move

beyond just the transaction of.

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If I do this, then something

happens back to me.

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Right.

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Either good or bad.

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And same thing.

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economically, I mean, this is getting into

the different branch and value theory.

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A little bit, so maybe you can

reel me in, but there are a lot

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of people who don't like the

transactional system of capitalism

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and they want a system that is more.

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Fair in which people.

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Are able to.

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Not only have based on what they produce.

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But to where everybody has.

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or even, socialism or even.

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Carmen Newsom.

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You can say it.

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Got to remember it.

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I say Marxism.

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Okay.

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But I don't know.

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Do you think that there's

something there too?

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That there is maybe a desire to

move beyond just transaction because

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we're relational beings innately.

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Yeah, I think so.

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And I'm glad you brought that out.

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I think Socialism.

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And even communism.

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Have a part of what we're longing for.

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And a part that's beautiful.

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The idea.

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That we will take care of you.

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Not based on what you produce, the simple,

because you're part of the community.

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Hmm.

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The problem is from my

perspective, at least.

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because.

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Marx was an APS.

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he did not have an understanding.

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Of human sin and fallenness

that would distort.

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the progress towards that goal.

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And without that understanding,

he underestimated both

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the willingness of people.

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And their present state unredeemed state.

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As I would call it.

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To work for the common good,

even across to themselves.

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Any underestimated.

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The degree to which the

leaders of this state.

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I would use power for their own selfish.

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Sometimes evil.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So you're saying that.

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The goals are that maybe arise

naturally from people who

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are made in the image of God.

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But they didn't understand enough or

underestimated certain elements of human

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nature that could help us reach that.

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You tell ya here on earth.

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Right.

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I mean, we're digressing, but as

long as we're digressing, let's

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make it a full deck restaurant.

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I think the vision that

Carl Mars had for communism.

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Was not a bad picture.

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Uh, where humanity.

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Should go in God's eyes.

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In the sense that it was not competitive.

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It was something that took care of all

members regardless of what they produced

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or did that part of it, I think is.

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Very close to the gospel.

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And the ultimate goal of God's kingdom.

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However.

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When you reject the idea of God.

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And therefore of sin in

the sense of a fallenness.

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fallenness that we all have

inherited because of, of

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human rebellion towards God.

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You have to explain.

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Human evil that you have to explain.

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What's held people back

from getting to that.

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Wonderful state for all this time.

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And for him because he rejected

religious categories of this.

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He came to the conclusion that

they were economic things.

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That there were economic

conditions and policies.

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And systems that created the evil in

humanity and that had to be overcome.

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So for him.

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If you change the economic system.

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You would get there.

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Because it wasn't that there was a.

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That there was an inward flaw in inward

sin that we needed to be changed from.

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And.

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And transformed from, it was if

you removed all these economic

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problems and barriers and systems

that are so oppressive, you

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would get there very naturally.

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And I think we've seen.

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How well that worked out, I mean, there

has been no greater evil systematically

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in the 20th century and into the 21st.

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Then communist governments.

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Hmm.

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All right, so that's quite a digression.

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So let's get back here.

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We haven't quite talked

about Eastern thought yet.

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So I'm wondering if you can

share a little bit on ethics

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from the Eastern perspective.

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Yeah, I'll try.

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Okay.

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Obviously, I'm not an expert and I'm.

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Looking at this mainly in

terms of the general philosophy

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that undergirds each of these.

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And when you come to humanity and ethics.

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What you find is quite a

different understanding.

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Uh, what's right or wrong.

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And what brings human goodness.

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Were those in Hindu thought.

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And from what I understand,

Also in Buddhism.

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So the two.

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Most predominant religions

or worldviews of the EAs.

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One of the key ideas.

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It's karma.

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Karma just means action.

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That's what the word means.

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But it's in meshed in this whole cycle.

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Of Samsara.

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in which the Ottman.

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This living force.

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Uh, which you are now one representation.

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that part of you, which we

would call in the west a soul.

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Is transom migrated or reincarnated into

a different animal form with some kind of.

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Or a different human form.

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Humans.

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Having a body of an

animal, So within this.

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Your goal is to get out of this.

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This wheel, the circle where you're

reincarnated the cycle, where this

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happens again and again, and again.

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And the way that this happens is

that you become more enlightened

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as you rise through these different

permutations this means is you rise

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higher in this almost circular staircase.

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Until you reach full enlightenment

and then enlightenment.

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Includes the idea.

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that all this one.

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There is no duality of any kind.

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And that includes the duality

of good and evil or writing law.

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Ultimately.

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You transcend that.

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Those things are part of the false

reality of this world in my, yet.

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The illusion trick.

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That we have to transcend

in our understanding.

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That's really interesting, right?

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so It's almost asking the wrong question.

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If something is right or

wrong, because people can.

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Progress enough to

actually move beyond that.

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Yes.

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And ultimately they all will.

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That's so fascinating.

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So again, At its heart,

the philosophy underneath.

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Hinduism and therefore, most

of Eastern thought, not all.

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The philosophy is this Moen is a move.

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All this one.

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So all distinctions.

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Between good and evil.

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Right and wrong.

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Belief in or knowledge.

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In eGrants.

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male and female, these are

all going to be transcended.

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They are not ultimately real.

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Gotcha.

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And the way to.

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Rise to that is through enlightenment.

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Yeah.

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And the way that you get enlightenment

is going to vary a little bit.

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So the Hindus are going

to get a different path.

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Early Hindus are going

to give a different path.

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Some of the later branches.

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Buddhism is going to

give a different path.

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But from what I understand on the

overall philosophy of what the

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world is, And where your goal is.

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They're pretty much agreed.

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you're talking about the

monotheistic perspective.

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that.

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There is an objective.

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Goal.

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Which is.

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To escape, my a.

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And to become one.

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However the path to that may

look different, but they're still

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trying to reach that objective.

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Right.

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Okay.

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And that perhaps.

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Shows a problem area or

potential contradiction.

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Or potential area of lack

of internal coherence.

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There's no duality.

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There's no right or wrong.

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There's no.

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ultimate preference for

one thing over another.

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They all blend into one.

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But at the same time,

there also seems to be.

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A consistent idea.

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That to be enlightened is better.

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But to be an enlightened.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure if there's a

way to work out that paradox.

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Saying that one thing's

better than the other, but.

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Also saying at the same time that there

are no dualities better and worse.

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I'm not smart afterward that out.

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Maybe other people have.

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Figure that out for.

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But from my perspective, That's

a mark against the internal

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coherence of that worldview.

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Not yet.

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I could be wrong.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So for clarification, as we talk about

enlightenment, are you talking about

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Like the enlightenment acres that

we're getting from like David Hume

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and John Locke and Thomas Hobbes.

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Those guys.

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Yeah.

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Good question.

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No, it's different.

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Okay.

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For the Western enlightenment.

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The main idea was that by rejecting

dependence upon God and religion.

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As the basis.

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Well formulated.

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intellectual ideas and philosophies.

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That you would now be free to.

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have.

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Light.

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That you now be free to truth.

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It's not bound.

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that's very different than this thought.

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This type of enlightenment is an inward.

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Journey that a person makes towards.

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Understanding in the fullest sense.

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That everything is an illusion.

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Gotcha.

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Let's come back to Finally monotheism again.

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Monotheism.

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Teachers that the ultimate reality.

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Is personal.

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That gives.

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Not only.

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A basis for human uniqueness and value.

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If we are made in light.

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Intellect ways.

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But also for a rational morality.

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That is here, whether

humans are here or not.

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And it's consistent with this.

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Than to say that there are certain things.

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We are always writing long.

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And there are certain

values that are always good.

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There are certain things

that are always bad.

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It's consistent with the metaphysics

of that system to make those claims.

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I am saying, or my viewpoint.

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Naturalism at least.

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Is inconsistent when it makes the

same claims based upon its metaphysic.

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I believe it's a mark against

naturals and then a very.

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profound market gets naturalism.

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an inconsistency or incoherence

within their own system.

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But the parts don't go here.

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Fit together.

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that's my thesis and

that's kind of what I'm.

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Trying to develop.

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So the internal consistency.

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Thing is one piece, but Are all

of these ethics equally livable.

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That's a very good question.

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if you believe there are no absolute

standards of right or wrong.

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And again, not a Roman would put

it in those words, but if that's

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where your viewpoint lifts to that,

to me is not a livable belief.

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Say more.

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If you go up and I've heard people

who have done this, I've heard of.

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A man who was.

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Talking with a Hindu.

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And this was a Hindu.

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He was advanced in his philosophy.

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And this Hindu.

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I was saying.

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That ultimately there

is no right and wrong.

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That those are concepts of this

world that are false dichotomies

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And the ultimate reality.

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Is not right or wrong.

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Ultimately those things,

those concepts do not exist.

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And the person who was talking to guy.

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Incredibly upset.

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With this idea.

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Annie.

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You got a pan of water that had been

boiling off the stove And it came

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over here to the, to the Hindu and

said, If there is no right or wrong.

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But aren't you telling me I'm not Rhonda.

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Pour this on your lap.

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Oh, yeah.

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And of course.

482

:

At that point for self preservation,

if that builds up consistency.

483

:

The may have backed off from that claim.

484

:

But that's what I mean when.

485

:

We talked about.

486

:

Is it livable?

487

:

Can I live this system?

488

:

Can I flourish as a human by whatever.

489

:

Uh, determination.

490

:

I choose to use that word or.

491

:

Can I.

492

:

Be who I want to be.

493

:

Can I show love consistently

with this system.

494

:

I'm not explaining that very well.

495

:

Can I live it out?

496

:

Can I choose this?

497

:

Embrace it.

498

:

Celebrate it.

499

:

Or do I have to.

500

:

Somehow.

501

:

Live life.

502

:

In spite of my system of belief.

503

:

And what happens when.

504

:

society at larger tops,

the same perspective.

505

:

Yeah, because that I

think can be challenging.

506

:

I think one of the questions I have.

507

:

Is that it still seems like even if

you have an ultimate standard, Like

508

:

some of these systems that would claim.

509

:

an objective.

510

:

Morality.

511

:

There's still a lot of ambiguity.

512

:

And based on that, based on the

contacts are based on a situation,

513

:

like, is it wrong to kill?

514

:

Well, yeah.

515

:

Well, what about in self-defense?

516

:

Oh, no.

517

:

Well, is it, is it right?

518

:

Or is it wrong?

519

:

Sure.

520

:

You know what I mean?

521

:

So there's still seems like there

has to be some contextualizes

522

:

with some of these ethics, right?

523

:

Yes there does.

524

:

So.

525

:

That question.

526

:

When I talked about this with, uh,

with the class that I sometimes teach.

527

:

I talked about the difference between.

528

:

a moral standard being universal.

529

:

And also it being absolute.

530

:

Okay.

531

:

a universal standard would

be lying, is wrong, always.

532

:

So does it depend on the culture?

533

:

If that's something that.

534

:

For all cultures and all times is wrong.

535

:

But it's not that salute in

the sense That you should never

536

:

choose that course at all.

537

:

Sometimes there are

going to be situations.

538

:

Where is the right thing to do?

539

:

If you are lying to protect

the good of another.

540

:

And the classic scenario here is.

541

:

World war II.

542

:

You're hiding Jews in your home

and the Nazis knock on the door.

543

:

Right?

544

:

Are you hiding Jews?

545

:

You've probably heard.

546

:

So the scenario like that.

547

:

To me, the correct answer is that you lie.

548

:

Now I didn't used to be

there because I used to be.

549

:

I think more simple minded.

550

:

But I've come to see that there is a

difference between saying something

551

:

is universally the right thing to do.

552

:

But also saying that it's not an absolute.

553

:

Okay.

554

:

So there are going to be times.

555

:

And I understand this a little bit

difficult concept for people to grasp.

556

:

Something can be objective.

557

:

So they can be objective.

558

:

But still not should be obeyed.

559

:

Absolutely.

560

:

The speed limit.

561

:

In our state is universal.

562

:

Okay.

563

:

At least if you're on the interstate,

it's always the same speed limit.

564

:

Does that mean it's never the right

thing to do to go, go beyond that.

565

:

No, I'd say in an emergency,

you should probably get to the

566

:

hospital as quickly as you can.

567

:

Right.

568

:

So there are times we're out of

love either for yourself or for some

569

:

passenger you have, or some other

situation that you were break that law.

570

:

Which applies to all people

in the state of Indiana.

571

:

it's universal, but it's not absolute.

572

:

So that's not a strike

against objective truths.

573

:

No.

574

:

It's a different category of ways of.

575

:

thinking about that.

576

:

Gotcha.

577

:

Gotcha.

578

:

I remember another professor

asking the question, trying to

579

:

understand If there were absolute.

580

:

Good and.

581

:

Wrong.

582

:

Asking the question.

583

:

If it was.

584

:

Always wrong to.

585

:

I don't remember what it was.

586

:

B animals or something.

587

:

And, you know, when you think, when you

think hard about that, it's like, well,

588

:

Unless there's some other things.

589

:

I mean, if somebody has put a gun to

my head and says, beat this dog, or

590

:

else I'm going to kill your family.

591

:

Then you beat the dog.

592

:

So maybe not.

593

:

But then when he qualified it

was saying, what about if I say,

594

:

is it wrong to beat the dogs?

595

:

Simply for no other reason then for fun.

596

:

And it's like, Okay.

597

:

Yeah.

598

:

I mean, when you get the action

and, uh, the motivation behind it.

599

:

Then you can begin to see.

600

:

So I think that was

helpful for me to see that.

601

:

Actions there can be ambiguity.

602

:

But when you began to add other

variables, Like, is it wrong to speed?

603

:

Well, it depends.

604

:

Why?

605

:

Okay.

606

:

Is it wrong to speed when you have a year?

607

:

You know, your wife's giving

birth in the back seat.

608

:

No.

609

:

But, you know, ask some of

these questions and just.

610

:

Have one of the variables.

611

:

It gets a little, little murky.

612

:

Sure.

613

:

And that's another way of

thinking through that is.

614

:

You can look at her principal.

615

:

That's universally true.

616

:

But I think, and then you can make

some absolute scenarios within that.

617

:

For example, is it always wrong to kill?

618

:

Well, do not kill applies to all people.

619

:

It doesn't just apply to some right there.

620

:

Not some people just by

virtue of their birth.

621

:

who can go out to.

622

:

Murder and it's fine for them.

623

:

It applies to all, but.

624

:

There are situations where

it's going to be not absolute,

625

:

but you can make it absolute.

626

:

Is it always wrong to murder your father?

627

:

For no other reason.

628

:

Then you simply are amused

by watching him die.

629

:

Oh, to me, that's an absolute right.

630

:

And then assuming he's

done nothing wrong to you.

631

:

I'm assuming it's.

632

:

Yeah.

633

:

This is not a self-defense.

634

:

Uh, this is not protecting

somebody else then.

635

:

Good to you.

636

:

You know, it's just right.

637

:

Is.

638

:

Is it always wrong to murder your

father for an impure motives?

639

:

That's it that's a more extreme

animal than beating a dog, but.

640

:

Yeah, I've got.

641

:

Up the ante here.

642

:

I would say, yeah.

643

:

And, So most people

would say, yeah, right.

644

:

I would think.

645

:

The question is.

646

:

Do you have a metaphysic in a worldview?

647

:

That provides you with a logical

basis for making that morality claim.

648

:

So if people are concerned with

internal consistency of a world view,

649

:

then that that's a pretty that's.

650

:

That's a really important question.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

And to be Frank, a lot of people

aren't, but we're doing this podcast.

653

:

For people who are thinking through.

654

:

The issues.

655

:

related to their own journey.

656

:

It's not about convincing.

657

:

People.

658

:

who don't want to be convinced or to make.

659

:

Blanket statements or anything like that.

660

:

It's simply to help people

think through the implications.

661

:

Uh, what worldview, what

viewpoint, what philosophy.

662

:

What stairs regarding God.

663

:

And believe in God, they choose.

664

:

Gotcha.

665

:

I think that's a good place to, yeah.

666

:

It's been long, a lot more, a lot more

that could be said for sure, but, uh,

667

:

just appreciate your time and helping

us look at the four great worldviews,

668

:

especially through the lens of ethics.

669

:

Yeah, glad to.

670

:

All right.

671

:

Bye.

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