Episode 14

God and the Universe

This episode focuses on the relationship between God and the universe. More specifically we will address:

  • The problem of evil
  • Why naturalism makes the problem of evil worse
  • Why the church has sometimes come across as anti-sex
  • Theism vs. naturalism and eastern thought on this question
  • Is the ultimate nature of reality personal or material, and what difference does this make?
  • Will we have physical bodies after death and resurrection?
  • and more
Transcript
Speaker:

Well, good morning, Daniel.

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Good morning, Nathan.

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Really excited to get

into this podcast today.

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Yeah, me too.

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I'm a little overwhelmed though.

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Yeah.

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We've got some deep stuff

to talk about today.

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Oh, so deep.

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Yeah.

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we're continuing the

discussion on knowing God.

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And how God is distinctly and

categorically different than we are

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as our creator and us being creation.

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And so just as we get into the discussion,

I'm wondering if you can kind of give

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us a brief overview of what we talked

about in the past episode by way of

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introducing today's topic of God and his

relationship to creation and all that.

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Yeah, let's do it.

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We began talking about

the knowledge of God.

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Acknowledging that we can't

really know God in His fullness,

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except as He reveals Himself.

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So He can reveal true things about Him.

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But there is a deeper sense in which

I think we're far too casual in our

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talk of God and about knowing God.

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And we forget what Kierkegaard

called the infinite qualitative

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distinction between us and God.

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Infinite distinction.

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Qualitative, not quantitative distinction.

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We talked last episode of some of

the ways that we are distinct from

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God, or that He is distinct from us.

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For example, we experience things

in this universe that He does not,

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or at least not in the same way.

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We experience time and

space, whereas He does not.

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He created time and space

when He created the universe.

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We experience limits where He is infinite.

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We experience change.

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So we change through time and

through space, and he does that.

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Change is part of this universe, as

it were, not what he is in himself.

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We experience the laws of

physics, for example, entropy.

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We experience temporal

sequentiality and causation.

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So when we talk about causation, we

mean one thing happens before another.

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That causes it to be or to change.

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But if God is a temporal, that

means not only is He eternal,

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but He is outside of time.

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That whatever causality He

experiences or does isn't that kind.

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And then we experience duration,

extension, not only space,

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but also extension in time.

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Whereas God has ase, which

is a fancy Latin word that

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means God exists in Himself.

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He does not exist with a body within

a space time matrix like we do.

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So, we talked about that last time.

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I'm not going to expand upon that.

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The last episode, we focused

on how this creates challenges

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in our knowledge of God.

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And we gave examples of how then we deal

with that or how we respond to that.

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Yeah.

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And if your brain is already

starting to hurt, you're not alone.

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This is some deep stuff, but it's good.

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And I remember us talking

about how God is different.

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I mean, he, he still interacts with

the universe and he can come into time

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and into space and that kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But fundamentally, he doesn't exist in

that space or in that time continuum.

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So we were talking about then,

okay, how do we know God?

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Anything more on that

before I move us into today?

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Darrell Bock Well, just one analogy

that can help us put our mind around

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that, but also introduce today, is

one that we have talked about before.

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If you can imagine that I create something

like a terrarium or an aquarium, which

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I did, I have a couple aquariums down,

and all the things within that aquarium,

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the rocks, the fish, the plants, the

snails, whatever else is in there,

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they all exist within that realm, that

box as it were, that box of glass and

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plastic, whatever else is in there.

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But I don't.

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So I'm existing in a

fundamentally different way.

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I'm outside of their universe as it is.

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All that they experience.

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Again, it's not a perfect analogy.

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No analogy is.

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But to me, that gets the idea across.

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That when we're talking about God, we're

not talking about something we make up.

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But we're also not talking about

someone who is simply part of the

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furniture of this universe in that way.

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There's going to be a fundamental

distinction between everything

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within the box of creation,

everything here and the creator.

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He can interact with this universe just

like I can interact with the aquarium,

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but at the same time he is independent

of it in a way that nothing else is.

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Yeah.

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That's been a super helpful

illustration to carry through this.

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So thank you for, for that.

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So we want to continue to unpack the

relationship between creator and creation.

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How we conceive of the

universe or the cosmos.

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So, can you go ahead and help us

understand the relationship between

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creator and creation or, to use

your analogy, what's in the box

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and what's outside of the box?

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Or who's it?

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What's in the box and

who's outside of the box?

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And really, this is one way of

stating the fundamental issue

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of philosophy is what is real.

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And everything else is going

to flow out of that, right?

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And when you think of the relationship

between God and the universe, to

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me it seems like there's three

basic categories that human thought

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has flowed into or has developed.

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One of those you might call

the independent universe.

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So this is the idea that there

is a real physical universe,

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but it's not dependent upon God.

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So we talked about this a little

bit in one of the first episodes.

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This would be coming from

the naturalistic worldview.

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Right.

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You call it naturalism, the idea

that only the natural world exists.

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There's no God or angels or

anything outside the natural world.

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Or you could call it materialism.

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The idea that only material things

exist, only things made of matter.

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Okay.

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So the fundamental thing is that it's

independent from a God or creator, right?

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There's a box, but there's

no one who made the box.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So let's think about

that here for a second.

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Under this conception, you have a

physical universe that is eternal.

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Now, at some point, this material

universe exploded into what we would call

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the present structure of the universe.

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But you have to posit here,

basically, that matter is eternal.

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Okay.

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I think the only alternative, if you're

committed to this worldview, is to

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believe that something came from nothing.

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That somehow there was not

matter, and then somehow matter

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just started to come into being.

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Which seems irrational to

us, in the deepest sense.

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One of the fundamental concepts

of our reality, and I certainly

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think it's right, is that It's

the, nothing comes from nothing

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and something comes from something.

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I'm not sure I'm saying that well.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, that you, you

can't get something from nothing.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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If all of a sudden I created,

poof, a rabbit out of nothing, you

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would view that as magic, right?

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Yeah, a gimmick, yeah.

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Yeah.

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You would not view that as a real thing.

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It doesn't work according to all that we

know about science or anything like that.

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Yeah.

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If I thought it was real and not a

gimmick, I'd probably have to suggest

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that it was somehow supernatural.

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Right.

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And you can't go there on

this viewpoint because There

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is nothing outside of nature.

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So, the alternative there, and

where most people go, is to

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view matter itself as eternal.

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So at some point, for reasons we

don't understand and probably never

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will, that matter exploded And

the big bang into the universe of

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supernovas and galaxies and stars and

planets and life that we have now.

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But none of this was planned.

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No one planned it.

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It just happened.

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Okay.

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So one ontological perspective of the

universe is it's independent from God.

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Now what are some challenges

with that philosophical

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challenges with that perspective?

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Just kind of briefly, cause I know

we've talked about it in the past,

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but this is helpful for helping us.

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Think through the Christian perspective

that creation was created by a

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creator being which has real life

implications But before we get there

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again, what does that mean to have

that conception of the universe?

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Well, it means a couple things.

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First of all, if matter is

eternal, then personality isn't.

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So matter exists before life Therefore

it exists before personality.

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Therefore it exists before

purpose, truth, beauty, and love.

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Okay, say more.

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I'm not sure I understand that.

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Okay, under this perspective,

matter is eternal.

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Uh huh.

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At some point, without a purpose,

because again, there's no one to

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purpose it, the matter formed to

the universe that we have now.

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At some stage of that development, life

occurred that had rationality of some

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kind, that we have the idea of purpose,

we have the idea of truth, we have the

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idea of right and wrong, of ethics.

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But all these things are not

fundamental to the universe, they

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are specific to one species that has

arisen within this, this, uh, chance

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developing universe, as it were.

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So all those things are not ultimate.

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Matter is ultimate.

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Okay.

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Now, the second thing that

happens here, then, is that you

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have a real problem with evil.

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And I know a lot of our atheist friends

look at Christianity or religion

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as a whole and say, you know, you

guys have a real problem with evil.

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And we do have a conceptual problem with

evil, explaining that, seeing how that

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works together with a good creator God,

but you don't get rid of that problem by

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going into naturals and we make it worse.

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Okay.

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Say more on that.

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Well, for two reasons.

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Number one, you make evil indefinable,

you make evil indefinable.

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And what I mean by that is.

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The very concept that we are using

to describe good and evil implies

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some standard, some purpose, some

rightness beyond human experience.

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But you've already denied

by your worldview that

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there is anything like that.

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So you make evil undefinable because

you're going to have to use words and

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categories from a different worldview

that's inconsistent with yours.

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To develop that idea.

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And the second thing that happens

is evil becomes meaningless.

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So there is no meaning for evil,

either natural evil or human evil.

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There's no meaning because

ultimately, meaning is part of

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the structure of humanity itself.

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Not something inherent

within this universe.

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Not something that can account for evil.

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And then along with that,

you have no solution to it.

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Evil is eternal.

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So the wrongs that have been

done will never be redressed.

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But also you have no hope then that the

future will be any less evil than today.

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You have the idea of human

progress, perhaps, but you don't

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really have a foundation for that.

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And if anything, if you look at human

history, I wouldn't say we're at a

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progression towards less evil that

the 20th century, the most recent

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that we've had full experience of

would point the opposite direction.

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So evil is eternal.

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There's no one to intervene, to bring

justice or to bring an end to the evil.

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So, that's why I say, if you go with

the naturalism route, that we have

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an independent universe that's not

created with purpose, then you have

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a deeper problem with evil than you

do on the theistic world, do you?

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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Okay.

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So, that helps us understand

the independent universe.

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Right.

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And, and then, in our notes we've

got here, there's another alternative

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conception, and let me just briefly

interject here that if this stuff

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needs more unpacking, check out our

previous episodes that we've done.

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Um, the four worldviews and ontology or

what is real metaphysics, whichever one we

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called it, but check that out because we

kind of unpacked this a little bit more,

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but this is helpful to remember this and

to bring it back into our attention as we

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think through creator and creation, right?

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Okay.

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So what's the second alternative

beside an independent universe?

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Well, this one's a little bit

harder to put a label on, but I

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think the idea will become clear.

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And that is the idea that God and

the universe are really the same

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thing in different ways of looking

at the same thing or different

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ways of describing the same thing.

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I almost call this the emanating

universe because that captures

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one major strand of thought here.

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So emanating means that it comes

out of God naturally, not by a

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free choice, but simply because it

overflows from Him, like a fountain

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overflows from its source, as it were.

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Probably the best analogy of this and

one that's, that's used quite a bit

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is the idea of the light and the heat

from the sun emanating from the sun.

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So you have the sun there, right?

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In this case, the sun

would be analogous to God.

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Okay.

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And then what comes out of the sun?

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Light and heat.

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Light, heat, radiation.

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We would call it that.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Energy.

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Yeah.

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Is that a purposeful act of the sun?

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No, it just is part of

its essence, I guess.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So under this viewpoint,

reality that we experience here.

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Um, is it some way in emanation

is an overpull of the essence of

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the one, however you define that.

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Okay.

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So this is kind of like reminding

me of monism and Eastern thought.

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Yes, exactly.

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Okay.

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But the point here is that it's not

a purposeful, loving act of creation.

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It just is, I guess.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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You see this in Greek thought.

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So you mentioned Eastern thought

and yes, definitely, but even before

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most Eastern thought was devolved.

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You have this in Greek thought, in

various philosophers, but especially, uh,

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Parmenides, who was a little bit before

Plato, he talked about this quite a bit.

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And he says, whatever is, is.

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And the sense being that

nothing really changes.

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It only appears to change on the surface.

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There's only one essential

being that kind of emanates in

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different ways or flows out.

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It was developed a little bit more

fully by Plato, but especially in

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Neoplatonism, Uh, Plotinus, you have

this idea being fully developed.

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You have these, these degrees of emanation

coming out of the sun as it were.

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And at one point, one of the lower

personages on the scale of emanation

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creates the physical universe.

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That idea goes at least back

to Plato that this physical

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universe itself is a kind of fall.

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Oh, I see the issue

starting to emerge here.

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Right.

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So the physical universe is not good.

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Yes, okay.

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Well, it's like what we were talking

about with Buddhism and Hinduism.

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What's the word?

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Maya.

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Maya.

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Yeah.

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And how Maya, M-A-M-A-Y-A.

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Yeah.

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Suffering but reality that we're

trying to escape because our,

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our physical universe is all bad.

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Exactly.

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So both Eastern thought and neo platonism

have this same dynamic that there is

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a, a oneness or there is a source, or

there is a something beyond, and they're

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gonna use different labels for this.

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Usually the one or the good

or something like that.

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The Brahman in Eastern thought and

then there is also this world of

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temporality and suffering and evil

and good and bad and Distinctions

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and this world that encapsulates

all these things is not ultimate.

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It's not real in the deepest sense It's an

emanation of some way Eastern thought is a

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little bit different here but In some way,

it's an emanation from the oneness, and

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the goal is to get back to that oneness.

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By escaping that.

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Usually.

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Okay.

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It's kind of weird how this works,

but it's a good digression here.

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So in this thought, and this

profoundly, Neoplatonism profoundly

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influenced Christian theology.

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Profoundly.

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Positively, or?

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Probably good and bad.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I would say good and bad.

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Okay.

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We'll have to unpack that in

a different episode for sure.

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Yeah.

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We'll be good.

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But one of the ways that this works

out then is, okay, if this physical

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universe is not good, so it's a fall,

it's a lesser value than God, or it's

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positively a valueless or even it's evil.

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So if that's true, then

what do I do with that?

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And there's two primary responses,

and they're very opposite.

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So it's kind of interesting

how they both flow.

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One is the way of asceticism, where

you're going to try to engage with this

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physical world as little as possible.

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Mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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And you see this in the monastic

tradition, in the idea of celibacy,

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in the idea of having self denial of

the body taken to extremes, because in

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their viewpoint, bodily desires are evil

because the body is not really valuable.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Mm hmm.

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There's also Easter variations

of this as well, okay?

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So that's one sense, the aesthetic

lifestyle, trying to remove

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yourself from physical pleasures,

physical interactions, engaging

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in this world as much as possible.

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The other is to say, okay, well, this

world and all the things within it,

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food and drink and sex and pleasure and

everything else, is valueless because

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it's not about God, then it doesn't

matter what I do with those things.

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Um, all that matters is that I seek

this inner union and those external

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things don't, don't matter at all.

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So you can give in to them.

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Yes.

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Paul summed it up this way.

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So the opponents that were trying

to infiltrate the church, their

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viewpoint was, uh, the body

for food and the food for body.

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So just eat whatever you want, do

whatever you want with your body.

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Yeah.

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Because it doesn't affect,

because really the most important

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things are the spiritual things.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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Now that idea, again, profoundly

imposes the Christian church, right?

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Yeah, I, I feel like I remember

studying, uh, First John as a church

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a couple years ago, and it seemed

like that was kind of the main point,

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the main heretical viewpoint that St.

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John was trying to counterattack.

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It was.

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It was a proto gnosticism.

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Gnosticism is fully within this tradition.

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Okay.

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And you had proto gnosticism, so the

first kind of forerunners of that thought.

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Already there within the community

that John was addressing, and

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yeah, he was hitting that hard.

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So the relationship between us as

people and creation and how we live

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and what we do with our bodies and eat

and drink and sex and all this stuff.

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It's been a challenging question

for Christians to interact with.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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This is super interesting.

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So part of this second conception of

the universe, the emanating universe

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has influenced Christian thought,

but it is not Christian thought.

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It is not.

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Okay.

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It is not.

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Can I, can I bring us to kind

of the Yeah, let's do it.

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Okay.

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So we got that independent universe,

which would be the naturalistic or

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materialistic perspectives that know God,

you know, different challenges of that.

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Then we got the emanating universe.

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Oneness between God and universe.

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Creation is not good and not

intentional and purposeful.

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And then we have this conception

of the universe that you have

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labeled the dependent universe.

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I'm not sure that they're the best ones

or not, but they get, they get across

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the points that you're trying to say.

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There are different ways that we

can view the universe and especially

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God's relationship to universe, or if

there's God or not, that kind of thing.

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So it's helpful.

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Yeah.

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And the ways that we

do matter, the changes.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So dependent universe, what I'm

trying to get across here is this

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is the viewpoint of the Scriptures

and classical Christian theology.

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That the universe is real and good,

but dependent and not ultimate.

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God is ultimate.

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God is the one who created the universe.

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He can exist without it, but

it cannot exist without him.

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That's what we mean by dependent.

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So it's not something you're

going to write off in your taxes.

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Unfortunately.

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Unfortunately, yeah.

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:

I don't think I have a

story about that, so.

421

:

Now, the way this developed is when

Christian thinkers began thinking through

422

:

this, And they began understanding

passages like Genesis 1, 1, and all that

423

:

that means, or Psalm 90, verse 2, before

the mountains were formed, or you gave

424

:

birth to the world and the universe, from

everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

425

:

So they're taking these ideas, and I could

list probably a dozen just off the top

426

:

of my head, and maybe a couple dozen more

if I looked them up and wrote them down.

427

:

But the idea is that God is fundamentally

distinct from this universe, and that

428

:

he created it ex nihilo, which is

a Latin phrase for out of nothing.

429

:

So that kind of solves the problem of

how did something come from nothing?

430

:

Yes.

431

:

I mean, it creates in our minds a little

bit of a conceptual issue as well.

432

:

So we have to imagine that there

is a God who is eternally existent.

433

:

That doesn't come easily to our mind.

434

:

Right.

435

:

And that we have to believe that

a spiritual being, a non physical

436

:

being, can create a physical world.

437

:

That doesn't come easily

to our mind either.

438

:

My point is that when you begin

thinking about this, either from a

439

:

natural perspective or a Christian

perspective, it tends to go beyond

440

:

what our minds can understand.

441

:

For example, if I say that matter is

eternal, does that make sense to you?

442

:

It's, yeah, it's hard to.

443

:

It's hard to, why?

444

:

What brought it here?

445

:

I mean, Heidegger said that's the

fundamental philosophical question.

446

:

Why is there something here than nothing?

447

:

Yeah.

448

:

And, and all my experience points to

things come and go and they degrade

449

:

and, you know, all that stuff.

450

:

Right.

451

:

It may change form, but I don't know.

452

:

That, yeah, that's a tricky one.

453

:

So my contention is not that it

makes perfect logical sense to

454

:

believe in an eternal creator who

forms this universe or who brings

455

:

physical universe into existence.

456

:

Even though he himself is not

physical, but the alternatives are

457

:

at least as intellectually puzzling.

458

:

Okay.

459

:

And the, and the results to my mind

are more consistent, a more livable

460

:

and a more coherent worldview.

461

:

Okay.

462

:

So I like you said that like philosophy

is hard no matter which position you're

463

:

taking, but the position you take

or choose or believe or that sort of

464

:

thing, it is going to make a difference.

465

:

It is.

466

:

So, what would be some of the

benefits of this dependent

467

:

universe conception of the world?

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

So, when the Christian church and

tradition and philosophy has said that

470

:

God created the universe out of nothing,

they're saying, first of all, that

471

:

God did not use preexistent materials.

472

:

So, matter is not eternal.

473

:

God is.

474

:

So, God brought matter into existence.

475

:

He does not have a body.

476

:

He does not live within the space

time continuum, because that's part.

477

:

of the universe he creates.

478

:

He is beyond and outside of all that.

479

:

He is ultimate.

480

:

Matter is not.

481

:

The physical creation is not.

482

:

Only God is.

483

:

So that's the first part of that.

484

:

So why is that important?

485

:

Well, then you have one ultimate thing.

486

:

You have God.

487

:

You don't have two ultimate things,

like you have God plus matter.

488

:

There's nothing outside of God

that constrained what he was

489

:

doing, that limited him in any way.

490

:

There's nothing outside of God

that is as ultimate as he is and

491

:

that could compete in any way,

shape, or form for our allegiance.

492

:

So it goes to show kind

of the, the power of God.

493

:

This, the power, but

also the ultimacy of God.

494

:

So under this conception, non

living matter is not ultimate.

495

:

A living being is ultimate.

496

:

A living being with purpose,

will, intentionality.

497

:

And that's a very fundamentally different

understanding of what reality is about.

498

:

That's good.

499

:

And the second thing that they're saying

when they say creation is out of nothing,

500

:

They're also saying that God makes

things out of nothing, not out of God.

501

:

So this is speaking against the

emanation idea that was very prevalent

502

:

within Neoplatonism and Gnosticism,

that God creates this physical

503

:

universe pretty much out of himself.

504

:

That's an expression of who he is.

505

:

That's an overflow of who he is.

506

:

Therefore, the universe and

God are in this symbiotic

507

:

relationship towards each other.

508

:

So, are you saying that God didn't create

creation out of an overflow of who he is?

509

:

So it's not out of God in the

sense that it's not created out of

510

:

his essence, but out of his will.

511

:

And that's very different.

512

:

So, think of the sun analogy.

513

:

So, the sun cannot not radiate light.

514

:

Exactly.

515

:

The sun cannot not do what it does.

516

:

Yeah.

517

:

But God, when he creates the

universe, has a choice in it.

518

:

It's a purposeful act.

519

:

Okay, so that, yeah, so that means God

has a purpose for creation, which means

520

:

that we can find purpose in God's purpose.

521

:

Exactly.

522

:

We can find purpose in God's purpose.

523

:

It also means, again, that

this world is seen as valuable

524

:

and good, but not ultimate.

525

:

Under the monistic viewpoint, under that

emanating universe kind of worldview,

526

:

you have this problem of, well, all

things are God, and yet what's really

527

:

God about them is not this It's about us.

528

:

Physical manifestation of that person,

but rather this inward, untouchable

529

:

part of them that will eventually be,

go back to God and be dissolved in him

530

:

like a drop of rain into the ocean.

531

:

So when you have that understanding,

then you tend to devalue the physical

532

:

expressions of that within time and space.

533

:

So it sounds like you're doing

humans and animals a favor

534

:

by saying that they're God.

535

:

But when you really begin to delve into

what that means, then you see that you're

536

:

elevating a certain part of them, but

you're devaluating the part of them

537

:

that's locked into this space time matrix

that is perceived as less than God.

538

:

So it kind of devalues all

kind of material things.

539

:

It tends to.

540

:

It tends to.

541

:

Now, I'm not explaining that very well.

542

:

But the idea of Judaism

and Christianity and Islam.

543

:

It's fundamentally distinct, not

only from naturalism or atheism,

544

:

but also from Eastern thought in its

entirety, in its very fundamental

545

:

conception of what reality is.

546

:

All religions are not

teaching the same thing.

547

:

They have very different

understandings of the most basic

548

:

parts of how we interpret the world.

549

:

That brings a lot of clarity to that.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

So let's delve into the, some of the

implications of this a little bit

552

:

now, and this will be something that

I think can help us understand why

553

:

it's important that we grasp this.

554

:

First, there is a fall within

this viewpoint, at least

555

:

under Christianity, right?

556

:

But that fall is not ontological

or metaphysical, the fact

557

:

that we are made of matter.

558

:

The fall is moral.

559

:

And that's a very fundamental difference.

560

:

Yeah.

561

:

Unpack that a little bit.

562

:

Well, under, say, Neoplatonism, there

is a fall, but the fall was when

563

:

whatever being, the demiurge, as

Plato called it, or some other being.

564

:

created the physical universe,

the physical universe itself,

565

:

this world of temporality and

matter and change is what's wrong.

566

:

It's the fall.

567

:

But under the Christian

worldview, that's not true.

568

:

There is something wrong with this

universe, but it's something not

569

:

related to matter, not related to

our existence as physical beings.

570

:

And therefore, what we are redeemed

from is not our physical bodies.

571

:

We're not going to live in this

disembodied, non physical existence.

572

:

That's not what salvation and redemption

is about, because that's not the problem.

573

:

The problem is moral evil

within human choices.

574

:

So certainly that moral evil

is experienced in the body.

575

:

Yes, it can be.

576

:

And we can feel real implications of

that evil when, when somebody smacks

577

:

you in the face and steals something.

578

:

You can feel that.

579

:

But you're saying that the

problem is not the body.

580

:

The problem is not the body.

581

:

So it's, the fundamental thing, I

remember one of my theology classes

582

:

loving this language of vandalization.

583

:

Vandalization?

584

:

Yes.

585

:

Like, like the brokenness that we

experience is like vandalized art.

586

:

Okay.

587

:

Because the art is innately evil.

588

:

Right.

589

:

And so, it's a difference between

the, the innate value of the thing.

590

:

So, the fall is not our most

fundamental foundational reality.

591

:

Exactly.

592

:

Our reality is good creation, people

made in the image of God, with

593

:

purpose that God has set in place.

594

:

The brokenness, when we chose life

apart from God, vandalized that and

595

:

is the part that needs redemption.

596

:

Exactly.

597

:

Yeah, that's a very good analogy.

598

:

It's a beautiful stained glass

window that's been broken.

599

:

Yeah.

600

:

But it could be restored

from outside of itself.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

Can't restore itself.

603

:

That's at least part of the analogy

from a Christian perspective,

604

:

but it has the potential of

being restored by someone else.

605

:

Yeah.

606

:

The solution isn't just to get rid

of the whole thing because, oh, it

607

:

was never any good to begin with.

608

:

No.

609

:

Our body is not the problem.

610

:

We are going to have a body, physical

body in the new heaven and earth.

611

:

Yeah.

612

:

That is a good thing.

613

:

Now, having said that, there is a

sense in which the scriptures talk

614

:

about the moral evil within our will

affecting our body in some way so that

615

:

it seems to develop these habits or

grooves where evil or sin tends to then

616

:

become part of our bodily responses.

617

:

But that's not inherent.

618

:

That's something that happens

as a result of the fall.

619

:

So sometimes Paul talks about

human flesh in a negative way.

620

:

But again, He has two different words.

621

:

He has the word flesh and the word body.

622

:

And in Greek, he's using

two different words.

623

:

Flesh, that part of us that at its

center is wrong, is not our body.

624

:

He uses a different word.

625

:

He uses soma.

626

:

He says sarks for flesh.

627

:

Anyway, that's why, when you asked about

the effect of neoplatonism and why some

628

:

of these things matter, I think that's

one of the areas where we get it wrong.

629

:

We tend to think that there's

something wrong with bodily existence.

630

:

It's because we tend to view salvation

as moving and escaping from our body.

631

:

That is not a Christian idea.

632

:

That is a neoplatonist idea.

633

:

Yeah.

634

:

I can see in the teaching of

Paul, especially when we have one

635

:

word in English for the two works

that Paul has, that he does, he

636

:

does talk about the sinfulness

and the brokenness of the flesh.

637

:

So I could see how the response would

be, okay, we'll put off the flesh through

638

:

asceticism or whatever, but understanding

that, okay, the body is good, but it has

639

:

been vandalized by brokenness and, and the

sin is profoundly deep, even into our DNA.

640

:

I mean, we experience through

habits and all this stuff, but.

641

:

Even we're born into a broken

paradigm and that's that theological

642

:

concept of original sin that we're

just born into by nature being here.

643

:

But that is distinct from how

we were created to be right.

644

:

And that hugely important

difference there.

645

:

Yeah, it is.

646

:

Yeah.

647

:

I believe God wants us to

enjoy our bodily existence.

648

:

He sets limits on it in some ways, for

example, in sex or drinking or whatever,

649

:

but the limits are not the same thing as

denigrating it as invaluable or not good.

650

:

You set limits on something

that you do view as valuable.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

It's like a sexuality.

653

:

There is a stream of anti sexual

teaching or anti sexual pleasure

654

:

teaching within the Christian tradition.

655

:

And I was wrong.

656

:

But at the same time, that

doesn't mean anything goes.

657

:

It means because something is so

good, you set limits on it so, so

658

:

it doesn't hurt people by its power.

659

:

When you have a home with a fireplace

on a cold winter night, that fire

660

:

within the fireplace is good.

661

:

If it spreads outside the

fireplace, you have problems.

662

:

Human sexuality, human pleasure in

the, in a lot of these senses is a

663

:

good thing in the right place and

in the right time and circumstances.

664

:

Otherwise, it can be destructive

and harmful to the people that

665

:

God meant to bless it with.

666

:

Yeah.

667

:

That's the same thing

with food or anything.

668

:

I know Aristotle's helpful in some of this

that it's good to have balance with that.

669

:

Excess is not healthy.

670

:

Deprivation is not healthy.

671

:

So it seems like a common

sense principle of life that

672

:

limits are not necessarily bad.

673

:

Boundaries are not necessarily bad.

674

:

They can be good.

675

:

They can be bad if you put them

in the wrong places or you abuse

676

:

them or that kind of thing.

677

:

But generally speaking, there can

be good limits and good boundaries

678

:

that can protect a good thing.

679

:

Right.

680

:

Exactly.

681

:

But you need to realize that

it is a good thing first.

682

:

So that gets back to the body piece

where you have to recognize that

683

:

our physicality is not bad innately.

684

:

Right.

685

:

It's good.

686

:

So you need to figure out a

proper theology of the body.

687

:

In order, in creation, in order to

honor it as it should be honored.

688

:

That's provided it's someone who kind of

summed up the teaching of some churches.

689

:

They paint sex in this

negative way sometimes.

690

:

Anyway, he summed up their

message as, Sex is dirty and

691

:

evil and disgusting and sinful.

692

:

Save it for the one you're

going to be married to.

693

:

Yeah, yeah.

694

:

Anyway, the point of this being

that in this, in this worldview,

695

:

physical things are good.

696

:

We are dependent.

697

:

We are dependent.

698

:

We are not ultimate, and we

cannot exist without God.

699

:

And yet we are distinct from

God, and we always will be.

700

:

We will, we will never be dissolved into

the Godhead in the Eastern or monistic

701

:

sense like a drop of rain into the ocean.

702

:

We will always be fundamentally

good in God's redeemed universe.

703

:

And fundamentally distinct from God.

704

:

That's what's different about this.

705

:

Now, there are at least four

really cool implications of this.

706

:

Yeah, I was going to ask you,

okay, what does this mean for

707

:

us like practically today?

708

:

First of all, we have to

remember that creation is free.

709

:

And what we mean by that, when we talk

about creation being free for God,

710

:

not that it was inexpensive or cheap.

711

:

But rather it wasn't constrained.

712

:

There was nothing outside of

God that forced him to create.

713

:

There was nothing that made him do it.

714

:

It was a free act of God.

715

:

Like if you compel me to do something

for somebody else because you're giving

716

:

me an ultimatum, that's not a free act.

717

:

But if I go and I give 10 to somebody

that I just meet because it seems

718

:

like they need it or 100 simply

because I want to, that's a free act.

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

Creation's free in that sense.

721

:

And that's good.

722

:

And that also tells us then

that creation is purposeful.

723

:

We may not understand fully the purpose

of God, but we understand that a rational

724

:

being who creates does so for a purpose.

725

:

And we also see scripture talks about

God's purpose again and again and again.

726

:

This is not something God just did as

a side project or because he was bored.

727

:

Or because he had to.

728

:

This is a free act.

729

:

It's a purposeful act.

730

:

The book of Ephesians, especially

chapter one, talks about this purpose.

731

:

He does all things in conformity

to his will or his purpose.

732

:

There is something God is doing.

733

:

This world that we're in is part of that.

734

:

We're in the middle of it.

735

:

We may not see it.

736

:

We're in the aquarium.

737

:

We may not see why the aquarium

maker created the aquarium.

738

:

But scripture tells us, and common

sense tells us, when we think about a

739

:

rational being created, there's a purpose.

740

:

So, purpose is fundamental

to this universe.

741

:

This is not an accident, and

we're not here by accident.

742

:

And then third, well, we've

already touched on this a lot.

743

:

Creation is good.

744

:

Creation is a good act of God.

745

:

Here, good especially means

fitting for His purpose.

746

:

So, if you have a good meal, it's

one that's fitting for its purpose

747

:

of providing you sustenance, but

also one that you really enjoyed.

748

:

If you have a good car, it's

not good in the sense of moral

749

:

rightness or wrongness necessarily.

750

:

The idea being that it gets you from

point A to point B reliably and in a way

751

:

that's Um, relatively enjoyable compared

to modes of transportation, perhaps.

752

:

So that idea of bringing pleasure

to God, but also be fit for his

753

:

purpose is what we mean by good here.

754

:

And that also, by the way,

allows the category of evil

755

:

to be real, but not ultimate.

756

:

Evil is working against God's purposes.

757

:

Basically that's at its heart.

758

:

We'll develop that some other time.

759

:

And then finally, creation

is an act of love.

760

:

Creation is an act of love.

761

:

It wasn't something God had to do.

762

:

There was nothing that God needed

that creation was going to fulfill.

763

:

I need a meal, so it's good in that

sense because I have a bodily need.

764

:

I need certain things

to keep my existence.

765

:

I need the affection of certain

people at least in my life.

766

:

I need, I have all kinds of needs.

767

:

God doesn't.

768

:

There is nothing outside of

God that He needs to exist.

769

:

Or for His pleasure.

770

:

The creation of this world did

not meet a need in God in that

771

:

sense like we experience need.

772

:

We're told in Scripture that God is love.

773

:

John 17 says before God created

the universe, there was this inner

774

:

Trinitarian love, love between

the members of the Trinity.

775

:

Love is more foundational than the

world itself, the creation itself.

776

:

We're told in Ephesians that He chose

us before the creation of the world.

777

:

And that part of this, Ephesians

chapter 1, is out of love.

778

:

So what's ultimate is God, and the

ultimate thing that we know about God

779

:

that we base our understanding of our

life about, the ultimate thing that

780

:

we know about God that changes how

we interpret this universe in our own

781

:

life is that God is love, that love

existed before creation even began.

782

:

If I am a believer, for me at least,

the fundamental facts about me are this.

783

:

That I am a dependent creature

made by someone else for his own

784

:

purposes, and his purpose is love.

785

:

It is for my good.

786

:

And if I really believe

that, it changes everything.

787

:

So, That's what I think we can know about

God by thinking a little bit more deeply

788

:

about his free creation of this universe.

789

:

Yeah, that's amazing.

790

:

I love how in this time you've brought

us through the way that conceiving

791

:

of God and his relationship to

creation or the universe without

792

:

God really has certain implications.

793

:

But this idea that we are dependent,

that we are created and God is creator.

794

:

It's, it's more than just, oh, God is

outside of space and God is out of time

795

:

and God is out of temporal causality.

796

:

But that no, this shows us something, it

reveals something about God's character.

797

:

That he is a God who is full of

purpose and that purpose is love.

798

:

And so as those created by him, our

purpose is good, our purpose is love.

799

:

Um, and that helps us live into

being who we were created to be.

800

:

Yeah, exactly.

801

:

Well, anything else you want to

say on that before we conclude?

802

:

Just want to emphasize again how

different this viewpoint is than the

803

:

idea that we are simply here because

matter itself somehow formed us.

804

:

In that view, there is

no definition of evil.

805

:

It's undefinable.

806

:

It's eternal.

807

:

There is no purpose, no meaning

in life except what I choose to

808

:

give it, but it's not inherent.

809

:

It's also, again, different than

Neoplatonism, or Eastern thought,

810

:

this physical universe is not

evil or wrong or an illusion.

811

:

It is real and it is good,

but it's not ultimate.

812

:

What's ultimate is God.

813

:

What helps me when I think through all

this is interpreting my life then around

814

:

that idea that God is ultimate, I'm not.

815

:

That is the truth, and what's

right for me then is to more and

816

:

more live my life in light of that

truth, a right response to reality.

817

:

And that's certainly not there, but

that helps me get there more and more.

818

:

That's a good word.

819

:

Well, thank you so much.

820

:

My pleasure.

821

:

See ya.

822

:

See ya.

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