Episode 25

Pythagoras and the Invention of the Soul (The History of Philosophy, part 5)

The Philosophy of Pythagoras: From Music to Soul

In this episode we discuss the teachings of Pythagoras, a major figure in ancient philosophy. The conversation covers his influence, particularly in mathematics, music, and his lasting impact on Western thought and Christian theology. Pythagoras's notion of the soul, especially the concept of the soul's transmigration and its contrast with Hebraic understanding, is explored in depth. The episode delves deeply into the philosophical and religious ideas that shaped Pythagoras’s theories and their implications.

00:29 Pythagoras and his 1,000 year influence

02:21 Historical Context and Influence

06:01 Philosophical and Religious Ideas

14:24 The Concept of Transmigration of the Soul

23:08 The Eternal and the Temporal: A Philosophical Dichotomy

23:30 The Soul's Imprisonment in the Body: Pythagoras to Plato

23:59 Christian Theology and the Body-Soul Dualism

24:34 Translating 'Soul': From Hebrew 'Nephesh' to Greek 'Psyche'

25:45 The Evolution of Language and Meaning

26:45 Theological Implications of Translation Choices

28:23 Understanding 'Nefesh' in the Hebrew Bible

31:20 The Greek 'Psyche' and Its Philosophical Baggage

34:00 Christianity's Fusion of Greek and Hebrew Thought

35:42 Practical Implications of Body-Soul Dualism

40:40 Concluding Thoughts on Body and Soul

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello, Nathan.

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What's new.

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Nothing much.

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Family time hanging out.

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Enjoying the summer.

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enjoyed a nice, cool walk

this morning it was good.

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I took a walk this morning and also, yeah.

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for those who aren't familiar with this

area, Franklin Indiana has beautiful.

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park system and trails and all that.

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So Sure does.

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I don't know.

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I love it.

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can ride my bike pretty much from my

house to here all on trails, except

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for the last tiny little stretch.

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Yeah.

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I'm a little jealous

of that fact, but yeah.

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Anyway.

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Well today, we're looking

at the Yes, that's right.

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The math guy.

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Right?

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I think I learned about

him in middle school.

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Well, Yeah.

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I mean, there is that.

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But there's a lot, lot more.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It was neat to see him

show up on the list.

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Cause I mean, when I hear his name,

I think of the Bataglia Anthem.

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And I might as well burst

your bubble right now.

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There's no proof that he invented that.

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Um, yeah.

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But it was used before his time by

the Babylonians and the Egyptians.

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Although either here his disciples, the

people came generation to apprehend,

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probably derive the first proofs for it.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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And it got attached to his name.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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Well, Why don't you go ahead and

give us a little bit of an overview.

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You know, this one's

important because I feel like.

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He is one of the most influential

philosophers that are going to talk about.

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especially in the internet world.

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He's right up there to me with

Socrates and Plato and Aristotle.

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And that's, that's a Pretty high.

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Praise right there.

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That's pretty good company.

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And he's also a trust team.

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Because the length of

the movement, he started.

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how long it lasted in, history.

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You have a.

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Pathare and school or movement

the last a thousand years.

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Wow.

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Yeah, that's crazy.

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And then he's also interesting

just because, you know, you've

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heard that phrase someone's in.

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Introduced the myth, the man, the legend.

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The man, the myth, the legend.

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Yeah.

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Did I get it wrong?

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Okay.

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The man, the myth, the legend.

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Yeah.

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Well, he was all three of those.

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He was a man, but he was

more of a myth and a legend.

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Uh, at least by the time.

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History gets done with him.

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We know more about the

mythology and legends about it.

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And then we do about the person himself.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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I was wondering what you meant by that.

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Yup.

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And we'll talk about some of those myths

and legends are pretty interesting.

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Cool.

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Cool.

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So just to give us a frame of reference

about when in history was he alive?

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All right.

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So last time we talked about Sinatra.

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Neeson.

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I write about the same time period.

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We don't have the exact

dates, but five 70 BC.

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You have this man.

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being born.

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So The best guests that we have for his

dates would be about five 70 BC to 500 BC.

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And he was born, like all the other

philosophers we studied so far in Ionia.

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What would be the west

coast of Turkey today?

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Back then?

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All that was a Greek colony area.

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And, He was born a little bit

further up the coast than the others.

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He was born in.

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Sammas.

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Boss.

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But.

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Somewhat early in his life.

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He migrated.

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Over to Southern Italy and Southern

Italy and Sicily were all dominated

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by Greek speaking people at this time.

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So that was not an Italian

or a Roman culture.

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It was a Greek culture.

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And he settled in a town called Croton.

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Curtain.

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No.

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I don't think we get crew towns

from there, but it's a Croton.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah.

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C R O T O N E.

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And that's again in Southern Italy.

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Now they're in Croatan he established

something of a school or a community.

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And another reason he's important.

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He's the first one to really do that.

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At least that we know of.

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And it's something, like I said,

a school, a religious community.

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And after his death, this continued.

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And so Plato and Aristotle who are writing

may mainly in the third century, BC.

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They interacted with students who would

call themselves, but that Koreans.

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And then after that time period, is

influenced declined a little bit.

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But in the years after

Christ, after Christianity.

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So for the first and second

and third centuries, a D his

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influence comes roaring back.

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And it continues actually

up until about 500 Ady.

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Again, about a thousand years.

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And this later flowering of that

from say 200 to 500, usually

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goes by the name of Neoplatonism.

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So Neoplatonism was a

combination of Plato's ideas.

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All along with other ideas,

derived from Pythagoras, as

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well as some other influences.

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Oh, wow.

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And that Neoplatonism didn't

that, sparked some of the.

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Gnostics and a.

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DASA test.

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And my am.

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I remember that correctly.

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Yes.

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A lot of the early Christian heresies

were influenced by that, but also the

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church doctrine itself and church theology

are heavily influenced by Neoplatonism.

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Gotcha.

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yeah.

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We're beginning to see how.

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Even more so than in the past episode,

some of the philosophical roots that.

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We've adopted.

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And that have been infused

with Christianity even began.

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500 years before Christ.

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Exactly.

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And in this case, especially

the idea of the soul.

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. we get our idea of the soul.

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From him or his school at least.

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and not so much from what the

Bible says, even Christians today.

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I think are more influenced

by his theory of the soul.

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As a Greek writing 500.

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BC.

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Rather than the old Testament or new

Testament conception of what a soul is.

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So is that because Paul was influenced

a lot by him or is that kind of a.

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bad seed that's taken root

in Christian theology.

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I wouldn't say Paul so much

influenced by him, although.

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He was a Hellenized you, so there's

going to be some of that, but more

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the century is right after him.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So when Christian theology

is first being formed.

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So this will be really helpful

in bringing clarity to.

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What the Greek conception of the soul

is so that we can hold that in one hand

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while looking at Jewish conception and

then the Christian conception of the soul.

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Right.

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I think it will be very helpful for that.

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At least that's my hope.

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I'm more excited about this episode

than probably any I've been so far.

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Cool.

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Yeah.

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There's light here.

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maybe third first though, we

should talk about the timeline

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of his life and thought.

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so again, He begins this.

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Community it's known as

this religious community.

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but it's also a philosophical school.

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That's heavily invested in

understanding math in music.

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So there's these different elements of it.

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It's religious community.

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We'll talk about some of their

strictures and rules in a minute.

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But it's also very much, invested in

studying math and viewing math is really

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the secret of the universe as it were.

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Related to that music.

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So they would view music and math

is kind of like sisters to each

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other, or Brad's a better way of

saying music is one map, Istation

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of the math in this of the universe.

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That seems like a really interesting,

weird fusion, philosophy, math and music.

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Yeah, I suppose it does.

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So help us understand

why those are related.

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Okay, well, let me first talk about.

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The religious idea a little bit,

because then I think we can deal

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holistically with the other ideas

and follow through that thought.

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The religious rituals and

rules of the community.

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Are not really that important

historically, but they do give some

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color to The Pythagorean society,

And they are known for their.

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Odd.

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Seemingly random rules.

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Such as.

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no eating of beans.

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So.

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No beans, no beans.

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Although there are some other

writers and said, no, no, they could.

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You could eat beans.

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Um, Do not stand on

your own nail clippings.

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I do not sit on a bushel.

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Never touch a white rooster.

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don't bury a corpse wearing wool clothes.

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these feel pretty bizarre and random.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, they do to less.

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And I suppose some of them have a

symbolic or ritualistic explanation.

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But if they do those

explanations are lost to us.

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Hmm.

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There is one other rule though,

that won't seem odd to us.

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And it will also become tied in with the

religious idea that philosophical ideas.

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Do not eat meat.

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Uh,

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huh.

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Why why that one.

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Well, they were the first community to

enforce vegetarianism that I know of.

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primarily because of their belief

in the trans migration of the soul.

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So other living beings have the same.

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Soul that we do just wrapped in.

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Different outer garment as it were.

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We'll come back to that idea.

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Maybe the first place to start.

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In regard to their philosophy

and math is this idea.

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The reality is in all, some way numbers.

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Hmm.

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So all reality is numbers I'm

trying to wrap my mind around it.

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Yeah.

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And don't worry if that sounds confusing.

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Aristotle said the idea was

barely comprehensible to him.

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And he's hardly an academic slouch, right?

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I mean, It makes sense that numbers are.

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Transcendent.

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they're immaterial.

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But yeah, that's a lot of it.

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To understand exactly

what he means by that.

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I mean, there's certainly are shapes

and a lot of geometry and a lot of.

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Physics.

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Is that what he's saying?

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That it underpins physics or something?

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Well, let me give you what Aristotle says.

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He thinks they mean by that because

he's a lot closer to it, obviously.

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he says, quote, Since they, the

Pythagoreans saw that the attributes

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and the ratios of their musical

skills were expressible in numbers.

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Since then all other things

seemed in their whole nature

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to be modeled after numbers.

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And numbers seem to be the first

things in the whole of nature.

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And the whole heaven to be

a musical scale and number.

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Oh, that's interesting.

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Right.

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And also like true.

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Cause we can now measure that

with wavelengths and all that.

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Right.

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So music is very, grounded in physics.

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Exactly.

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So kind of amazing that 2,500

years ago, They kind of knew that.

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Yeah, it is.

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They are credited to be in the first one.

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That's to understand.

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how numbers.

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Guide.

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the musical notes as it were.

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I'm not saying that very well,

but this is just totally new.

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Okay.

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Well, think if you have a string

that you're going to use any

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musical instruments, like a, like

a liar back then, And if you take

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two strings that are identical.

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But you stretch one of the, about twice

as much, then all of a sudden you've got

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exactly one octave about there, right?

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that was what they discovered was that

there was this mathematical proportion

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to the nose and especially the actives.

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so to them, Is seemed to be.

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That.

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Okay.

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Here's an element of reality.

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that is shaped by numbers

that we didn't know before.

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So there was a little bit of a conceptual

leap to thinking that all reality was

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life that we just had discovered it yet.

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Part of that came out of that was the very

ancient idea of the music of the spheres.

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the spheres being the spheres of heaven.

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the planets, the sun and the stars

and the moon that these all moved.

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In this mathematical order.

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And then if you had the right.

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instrument or.

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Facility, you could actually

hear the music that the

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spheres of the heavens produce.

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And that's going to be something that gets

carried over even into the middle ages.

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But that's interesting.

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because things that move do

oftentimes make noise, so yeah.

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No.

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So that's one way in

which you could say that.

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Everything is numbers.

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But they also went a little further.

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In the sense that the also viewed

numbers having this spiritual or

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psychological symbolism and significance.

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So different numbers

represented different things.

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You got an examples?

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I do.

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So The number two represents, man.

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And the number three represents woman.

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So it guess what five represents.

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Marriage.

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There you go.

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Great.

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Why do you know why.

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No.

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Okay.

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I mean, a lot of stuff has been lost.

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Yeah, that's it for his justice.

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I don't know why that either, but.

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so they had this whole symbolism.

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And then at the same time, they

also regarded numbers spatially.

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So one is a point.

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Two as a line.

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Three is a surface.

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Think of one side of the cube.

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and four is the solid.

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So 1, 2, 3, 4, you've got the

four, four different dimensions.

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all things.

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Are in those four

dimensions to some degree.

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But what's interesting here.

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If you add one and two and

three and four together.

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What do you get 10?

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Right.

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The perfect number.

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The perfect number 10.

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And if you take.

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10 dots.

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And you arrange them.

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So in the top row, you've got one row.

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You've got two spaced evenly.

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Rowan or that you've got three.

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And then under that, you've got four.

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What do you have?

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Symbolically triangle,

triangle or pyramid?

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Pyramid.

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Yeah.

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One of the greatest symbols

of the internet world has a

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lot of spiritual significance.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Points to the heavens.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Now.

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Let's go back to this

idea of number symbolism.

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Number ontology refers to the status

of numbers in the order of reality.

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So they held that numbers

for not only eternal.

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But the very building blocks of reality.

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The numbers could exist as

it were without the universe.

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And column brown summarizes it this way.

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Mathematical knowledge was not

simply a tool for research.

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It was a quasi religious

means of initiation.

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Into the mystery of being.

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So for us.

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We viewed numbers as a way to.

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Further understanding of.

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the different disciplines,

especially in the sciences.

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Right.

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But for them, it wouldn't beyond that.

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It was that, but it

wouldn't be on that as well.

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It was this means of

initiation into understanding.

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The mystery of being or what

the universe really meant.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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So there's a lot going on there.

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That's kind of hard to wrap my mind

around I'm just trying to think.

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It seems like every field.

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Now even there's a way to.

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Think about literature mathematically and.

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Language and grammar and

all that mathematically.

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So that's really interesting that.

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we can see how that's all

mathematical, but they're saying

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there's something even more.

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Religious or foundation or

philosophical about the math.

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Yeah.

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That's just totally different from

anything I've ever thought about.

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Hm.

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Well, it all started here.

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And we can see why this was so

attractive to people, right?

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Yeah.

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Because you have this thing,

we're all familiar with numbers.

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But now.

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This thing is key to understanding

the whole meaning of the universe.

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It's accessible to anyone.

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In one sense.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But these were also taught as secret

doctrines for, Many generations, huh?

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. Now, one other.

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Item here.

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And this is probably

the most consequential.

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Is there idea of the trans

migration of the soul.

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The trans migration of the soul.

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Sometimes we call that reincarnation.

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And remember.

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The very first.

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Episode in this playlist about

the history of philosophy.

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We talked about this idea.

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buried very deep within Greek history and.

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psychology.

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Of this shapeless stream undergirding,

all reality and living things spill out

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of the stream into the physical reality.

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For a while and then they dissolve.

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And then they die and

it's all back into it.

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Do you remember us talking about that?

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Yeah.

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All right.

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It's kinda been a whole theme

throughout all the podcast, But I

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know we've talked a lot about it and

discussing Eastern thought as well.

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So I know that there's been a lot of

overlap and even through this history

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of philosophy, Set of podcasts.

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it's emerged up again.

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Right.

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And part of the reason I wanted to

talk about that is because I think

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it's not talked about very much.

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In the other history of

philosophies I've, read.

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For whatever reason.

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Partly because it's, almost

more of a religious idea.

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Than a philosophical idea, perhaps.

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or mythological idea

rather than something.

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That the philosophers argued about.

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Can you, Remind me that the difference

between the philosophy and the

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religion there as you're using it.

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Well, in their culture, there

really wasn't a distinction.

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But from our terminology.

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It would have a religious aspect

to it because it was closely

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associated with the miss.

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of antiquity.

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So before the Olympian gods, that

Homer, for example, we talked about,

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there was already this type of,

God worship is more of this nature.

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God's arising out of

this shapeless stream.

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And there was also a religion

associated with this organism.

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But even before or prism, which came

about a little bit before Protagoras,

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perhaps it's not exactly clear.

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But even before that, All the

way back to the Minoan situation.

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The Minoans on Crete, which is really the.

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The bed as it were the seedbed of

Greek thought you had religious rituals

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attached to this, trying to experience

the oneness with that shapeless dream.

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Through going into the earth, having

these hallucinogenic agents given to you

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experienced in this static union, and we

have psychologically so anyway, that's

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what I mean, it was attached to all

these religious practices and beliefs.

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But you really see that coming back here.

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Hm, and it's going to influence Play-Doh.

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I mean, Plato's conception of

the soul is going to be based.

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Probably more with accuracy.

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Chris and anybody else.

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And Pythagoras is based on

organism and its predecessors.

451

:

Which are religions.

452

:

Yeah.

453

:

The idea.

454

:

I think that we can separate

religion for philosophy.

455

:

Is not one that you can

prove from the history books.

456

:

They've always run their foundation.

457

:

Then intertwined together.

458

:

Yeah, that's helpful.

459

:

That's okay.

460

:

That's a long digression.

461

:

No.

462

:

That's okay.

463

:

It's helpful.

464

:

Cause you're saying they're

intertwined, but just understanding

465

:

the distinction there is good.

466

:

Yeah.

467

:

So the earliest, I can figure it out

of this idea is the shapeless stream.

468

:

Again, going all the way

back to the civilization.

469

:

On Crete.

470

:

the shapeless dream of which

living things come into and out of.

471

:

But orf ism.

472

:

Apparently for what we know of it.

473

:

And certainly Pythagoras.

474

:

I took that one step beyond so that

when a person or an animal dies.

475

:

It's soul and body are separated.

476

:

The body decaying while the soul,

which is probably this aspect of

477

:

the shapeless stream is then reborn

into another animal or human body.

478

:

So From what I understand anyway.

479

:

Originally in that shapeless dream

idea, it was just one of the thing died.

480

:

It's life horse.

481

:

As a word, went back

to the shapeless dream.

482

:

Here it has its own individual.

483

:

status it's its own individual entity.

484

:

this eternal soul that you would have.

485

:

And so, again, It's almost

like you changing clothes.

486

:

So you get up in the morning.

487

:

You put on one set of clothes and the next

day you put on a different set of clothes.

488

:

You take one off, put the other on.

489

:

The soul takes on a form

of an animal or a human.

490

:

Like you put on clothes and then it

discards that in a where something else.

491

:

Now.

492

:

That idea.

493

:

Is going to be so influential

In the thought of philosophy.

494

:

really the whole.

495

:

Western thought and in

Christian theology as well.

496

:

Because of the reincarnation of the

solar, just because he makes A distinction

497

:

between body and soul, mainly that okay.

498

:

So Christians don't believe

in reincarnation, right?

499

:

So I don't believe in the

trans migration of the soul.

500

:

But we have inherited many of us anyway.

501

:

This belief that the soul and the body

are fundamentally different things.

502

:

Yeah.

503

:

But my soul lives on right now,

what I want to get across here.

504

:

That goes back to Rigorous,

not the old Testament.

505

:

Really?

506

:

Yes.

507

:

This is called the introduction of mind

body dualism or the soul body dualism.

508

:

The idea being that you are

two things as a human being.

509

:

You are your soul, or sometimes

you would call it your spirit.

510

:

And your body.

511

:

And that your soul.

512

:

Naturally can live without your body.

513

:

it has this eternal status apart

from your body and therefore

514

:

when you die, You cast off.

515

:

Your body, but you live,

disembodied existence in heaven.

516

:

Wow.

517

:

So you're saying that that's not.

518

:

scriptural.

519

:

That is not the teaching of the old

Testament, or I believe the new Testament.

520

:

That's huge.

521

:

Yeah, it is.

522

:

It is.

523

:

And I think.

524

:

If I could help people.

525

:

It was Christian.

526

:

So if I could help Christians

understand one thing.

527

:

Throughout all the things we've been doing

so far about the history of philosophy.

528

:

It is this idea.

529

:

That this idea of the body soul dualism.

530

:

Is an idea from Greek thought

that we do not have to believe it.

531

:

We can choose to believe it.

532

:

We can say, oh, well, they got the right.

533

:

But we have to recognize

that we're doing that.

534

:

Not because of the Bible.

535

:

But because of something we're saying

the Bible OSI one about or wrong

536

:

about, but we're adding onto that now.

537

:

Hmm.

538

:

So you think that this is a.

539

:

I don't know if this is the right word,

but you think it's a bad philosophy.

540

:

That's been imposed on scripture.

541

:

We read scripture through the lens

of this Greek philosophy, but in

542

:

some way, actually taints the.

543

:

goodness of the truth of scripture.

544

:

Yes.

545

:

That's what I think.

546

:

Wow.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

And I become more convinced about

the more I've thought through

549

:

and read things over the years.

550

:

I think we have.

551

:

Uh, conception of the human soul that

is more formed by Greek culture than,

552

:

the Christian or Hebrew scriptures.

553

:

And that's a bad thing for us.

554

:

I would love for you to unpack.

555

:

Why.

556

:

That's so bad because

just thinking about this.

557

:

It seems like, okay, so maybe we got that

wrong, but how, bad can it really be?

558

:

Th to think that that's, that

there's a body soul dualism.

559

:

Okay.

560

:

So, let me flush this out a bit,

and then we'll talk about the

561

:

Hebrew thought in the old Testament.

562

:

And then we'll see how they contrast.

563

:

So If the trans migration

of souls is correct.

564

:

Then body and soul are

two distinct things.

565

:

Not just two different ways of

talking about the human person.

566

:

Like you could be called a male,

you could be called an American.

567

:

You could be called a dad.

568

:

You're all of those things.

569

:

It's just a different

way of talking about you.

570

:

Sure.

571

:

But that's not what this is.

572

:

the body and the soul then

are two distinct things.

573

:

and one is not the attribute

of another, like would, could

574

:

be an attribute of the table.

575

:

No they're distinct one can't

exist without the other.

576

:

And they're not only distinct.

577

:

And here's where we get to some

of the implications of this.

578

:

But they are.

579

:

Two different kinds of things.

580

:

So the body and soul are not just separate

things, but two different kind of things.

581

:

Like you and I, we both

have a nose, right.

582

:

Those are two separate noses.

583

:

But they're fundamentally

the same kind of thing.

584

:

Yeah.

585

:

But when you think of something,

say, In emotion, like bravery.

586

:

And then something else, like a rock.

587

:

Those are different kinds of things.

588

:

Right.

589

:

They're not two things at the same

kind with the same characteristics.

590

:

They work in different ways.

591

:

Different spheres have

different attributes.

592

:

And.

593

:

The soul body dualism says that the

soul and the body are fundamentally

594

:

different kinds of things.

595

:

Now, if this is true.

596

:

Which one's more valuable.

597

:

I mean, go back to the illustration

we talked about before.

598

:

You changing your clothes.

599

:

Who's more important or

which is more valuable.

600

:

You are the coolest you change into

one day and out of the next me.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

Obviously.

603

:

Because the one is here for a while.

604

:

but it's going to be discarded.

605

:

You do away with it.

606

:

The other is eternal.

607

:

And it has inherent value.

608

:

So what happens here is that not only do

you have two distinct things being taught?

609

:

But one of those is eternal

and valuable and precious.

610

:

And the other really

doesn't matter that much.

611

:

Yeah.

612

:

Yeah.

613

:

Or it can even be a hindrance.

614

:

And so one of the ideas that will come

about, I dunno, Pythagoras and self-taught

615

:

this, but his successors certainly did.

616

:

And Play-Doh picked up on it.

617

:

And Plato is the big guy.

618

:

Is this idea that the soul

is imprisoned in the body.

619

:

That the body.

620

:

Is an unnatural home for the soul.

621

:

The soul wants to be free a bit.

622

:

Um, therefore.

623

:

The body's not only less valuable than the

soul, but it's a detriment to the soul.

624

:

Yeah.

625

:

That carries over as you can probably

see pretty easily into Christian

626

:

theology, especially to the middle ages.

627

:

And that does seem to make sense.

628

:

I mean, as we get older, Our bodies do

to K while our spirits can stay strong.

629

:

Yeah.

630

:

And a lot of people can still, in

a sense, feel imprisoned by the

631

:

pain and The decay of the body.

632

:

Sorry.

633

:

Get that in a sense, but see what you're

saying, that it can be dangerous to have

634

:

such a stark distinction between the two.

635

:

Yes.

636

:

Yes.

637

:

And especially when we compare it to the

biblical idea of how those words are used.

638

:

obviously, if you look at the Hebrew

Bible and you read it in Hebrew,

639

:

you don't find the word soul.

640

:

the Greek word, which will come later

that we've been talking about is suitcase.

641

:

Right?

642

:

But we're talking about Hebrew.

643

:

So before the Greek new

Testament, And, the word.

644

:

That will be translated as soul

When the Hebrew eventually gets

645

:

translated into Greek in like

the century or two before Christ.

646

:

In the Septuagint.

647

:

Yes, exactly.

648

:

is the Hebrew word,

nefesh, nefesh, nefesh.

649

:

Okay.

650

:

Yeah.

651

:

So when the translators at the Septuagint,

like I said, a century to before Christ.

652

:

When they took the Hebrew old

Testament and put it into Greek.

653

:

They took the word nefesh in Hebrew.

654

:

When they saw that say there, they've

got this verse or this passage.

655

:

And they're gonna put that in Greek.

656

:

They're going to use the word suitcase.

657

:

That's.

658

:

Perhaps the inevitable, but

it was also very unfortunate.

659

:

So.

660

:

So it was a Greek.

661

:

Greek language shouldn't have a better

word for it, but it doesn't capture

662

:

All of the meaning of the Hebrew word.

663

:

Right.

664

:

Now in one sense.

665

:

It was probably the best choice

because originally suitcase had an

666

:

equivalent to what nefesh means.

667

:

We'll talk about that in a second.

668

:

But by the first century, That

original meaning had morphed

669

:

into something that has so much.

670

:

Baggage of so many

philosophical overtones.

671

:

That when Christians began reading that.

672

:

They were Greeks who were formed in this.

673

:

And this language with this

understanding of the word.

674

:

And they're gonna report that into it.

675

:

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

676

:

So these are guys who grew up in the.

677

:

Cultural air.

678

:

Of.

679

:

Patronistic philosophy.

680

:

Yeah, even though they wouldn't know it.

681

:

I mean, They may have never heard, heard

the name Plato or read any of his works.

682

:

But yeah, the whole Mediterranean

world, there was Hellenized

683

:

Greek guised, as it were.

684

:

The conception of sukay is.

685

:

Like you said, it's got a

lot of, uh, philosophical,

686

:

overtones borrowed from that.

687

:

Exactly.

688

:

This is an important thing.

689

:

I think for people to realize that.

690

:

Bible translation is not a one-to-one.

691

:

Exactly.

692

:

correlation.

693

:

And so translating from Hebrew to Greek.

694

:

Doesn't always fit neatly in

the same thing from Hebrew to

695

:

English or Greek to English.

696

:

Exactly.

697

:

But then also something

that's super interesting.

698

:

We've seen it in English.

699

:

Go and read Shakespeare is that

language changes over time.

700

:

And so that adds another layer of, okay.

701

:

Suki, like you said, may have met

one thing when it was translated

702

:

to a jam, but then by the time.

703

:

The early disciples of

Jesus are reading it.

704

:

And the people who have been

brought in for the Gentile nations.

705

:

are reading it or listening to it.

706

:

They're thinking about

something different.

707

:

Yeah.

708

:

Words change.

709

:

Like you said.

710

:

But we can also trace the meaning of the

words as we see them in context and other.

711

:

places.

712

:

Sure.

713

:

So we can see, okay.

714

:

This word has changed over time.

715

:

like, you're saying.

716

:

Like suitcase at one point may have

meant something different than suitcase.

717

:

500 years later.

718

:

Exactly.

719

:

So we can.

720

:

see how it's using context to

help us understand a meaning.

721

:

So that's, been the beautiful thing about

linguistic scholarship, as you can see.

722

:

So anyway, so you said.

723

:

Yeah.

724

:

that's one of the things you learn

when you take professional studies

725

:

to be a pastor, or sometimes the

professor, depending on in her field.

726

:

As you learn how words change.

727

:

And one of the tools that

people want to check me on this.

728

:

The standard.

729

:

way of understanding biblical words, the

best reference has been used for almost a

730

:

hundred years, Would be the theological

dictionary of the new Testament.

731

:

It's like 13 huge vines, very technical.

732

:

And you can look at suitcase

and they will then go through.

733

:

The history of that.

734

:

But as part of that, they dealt

very deeply into the old Testament.

735

:

words that were translated

that including nefesh.

736

:

So they've got all long section on nefesh.

737

:

They've got a huge one

section on suitcase.

738

:

And you can, that.

739

:

anyway, so the word nefesh.

740

:

Is going to be used over 700 times in the

Hebrew old Testament or the Hebrew Bible.

741

:

And it has the idea basically of.

742

:

Breath.

743

:

Sometimes it's even used for the throat.

744

:

I think it says Joseph when he was in

prison, had a bar around his nefesh.

745

:

So probably his neck.

746

:

So originally it meant

something like the breath or.

747

:

Life for super person.

748

:

Because when you stop breathing,

You stop living right.

749

:

So it has this idea of, a life force.

750

:

Now more broadly that's it's.

751

:

Etymological use and one of the word

begins, but more broadly, it was just

752

:

used to refer to any living, being.

753

:

That had breath in them.

754

:

So even animals in Genesis,

one are called nefesh.

755

:

Adam and Eve and the living

creatures are called nefesh.

756

:

So like breathers.

757

:

The breathers.

758

:

Yeah.

759

:

Basically, If you wanted a

full definition there would be.

760

:

Living beings who breathe

or something like that.

761

:

Hmm, or living beans.

762

:

And then parentheses.

763

:

We know that there are living

beings because they breathe.

764

:

So that's kind of the idea.

765

:

And so most of the time in the

old Testament, It is used simply

766

:

to refer to the whole persons.

767

:

Like in the Noah's Arthur.

768

:

Eight nefesh aboard, you know?

769

:

it start referring to an individual inner

part of you as opposed to your body.

770

:

It just means.

771

:

The whole of who you are.

772

:

So like personality.

773

:

Well kind of, but.

774

:

Awesome.

775

:

Good.

776

:

All of you.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

Okay.

779

:

You are a nefesh.

780

:

You don't have enough fish.

781

:

You are in that much.

782

:

In my entirety.

783

:

Yeah.

784

:

Nathan.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

You're just a living being.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

You're still living big.

789

:

And they're not trying to divide you up

into different compartments or categories.

790

:

You're just delivering bean and

it's like in the old usage, enabled

791

:

terminology, when a ship goes down,

And see how many souls were lost.

792

:

Well, you just mean how

many people died, right?

793

:

Yeah.

794

:

Yeah.

795

:

that's the primary usage.

796

:

Of nefesh.

797

:

So it's almost always going to mean that.

798

:

And when it doesn't, it usually has,

if it's a breath or breathing, So in,

799

:

in Joseph's case that that bar was

Restricting breathing or something or

800

:

possibly but originally it probably

meant neck or breath because.

801

:

Those two things that are

associated with each other.

802

:

. I mean, I think of the word heart, you

know, and all that that's involved in.

803

:

Uh, body part, but it has this meaning.

804

:

So neck or throat has this

idea of the livingness.

805

:

So I think that's how the.

806

:

edible logical drift as it were works.

807

:

So it's the entirety of a person.

808

:

Yes.

809

:

Or living being.

810

:

Yeah.

811

:

And the Bible project has a great video

as well as a longer podcast about this.

812

:

And basically they just bring this out.

813

:

In biblical terminology.

814

:

And the old Testament,

you do not have a soul.

815

:

You are a soul.

816

:

You don't have a nefesh.

817

:

You are a nefesh.

818

:

Now, originally.

819

:

That is also.

820

:

More or less than meaning of

suitcase in the Greek world.

821

:

So if you look at Homer's time, And

from what we can tell pre Homer.

822

:

We don't have a lot of Greek.

823

:

Before Homer, It has that same idea

of throat or breadth of her person.

824

:

And then it drifts into this idea of.

825

:

The living breath of a person again.

826

:

This idea very similar to nefesh.

827

:

It's here with.

828

:

that That word suitcase.

829

:

Biggest getting all this

other baggage of this.

830

:

Inner part of you.

831

:

That can exist without the body.

832

:

That's eternal.

833

:

That is.

834

:

So intertwined with your

mind and your ideas, and it

835

:

doesn't really need the body.

836

:

Even the body could be an

imprisonment for this thing.

837

:

that is going to start.

838

:

Here.

839

:

but from that, then it's going to drift

into the mainstream, our brief thought.

840

:

Especially by the time Play-Doh.

841

:

Gets it.

842

:

Remember, Plato's the big guy, right?

843

:

Plato is the one who really

sets the standard and the

844

:

definitions and the meanings.

845

:

And so for him, he's going

to take mainly this idea.

846

:

And he is going to develop

this idea of the soul.

847

:

As something apart from the body.

848

:

That the body.

849

:

Uh, in many ways is inimicable to,

you know, It's not suited to this.

850

:

No.

851

:

I'm talking too much.

852

:

Do you have your question there?

853

:

I have one more.

854

:

Forgot about this.

855

:

So it's just has a new idea.

856

:

But he's, co-opting old language

and language creates culture.

857

:

Yeah.

858

:

So he's, giving an old word.

859

:

A new definition.

860

:

And we see this happen all

the time in English, too.

861

:

Sure.

862

:

Um, giving an old word, a

new definition that has.

863

:

Opened up in a sense people's eyes

to think about it in a new way.

864

:

Yeah.

865

:

And that's.

866

:

Is what it is, but, That can

be difficult, especially when.

867

:

What he's trying to describe.

868

:

Isn't necessarily.

869

:

the right thing.

870

:

I don't know.

871

:

This is a hard thing

to kind of talk about.

872

:

Cause I'm trying to wrap

my mind around it as well.

873

:

Sure.

874

:

Yeah.

875

:

So.

876

:

Just backing up then.

877

:

This is around 500 BC.

878

:

Plato is going to be.

879

:

a century to later than that.

880

:

And.

881

:

All this thought.

882

:

Then it's going to be changing about what

this word or this concept of the soul is.

883

:

testaments can be translated from

Hebrew into Greek using that word

884

:

suitcase for nefesh after all that.

885

:

So centuries after this has begun.

886

:

And it's going to be red.

887

:

And understood by people in the

Greek world, in the last part of.

888

:

The first century.

889

:

So Christianity secure to move out

of his Jewish roots in Palestine.

890

:

Or Israel.

891

:

Into the broader Hellenized world,

last half of the first century.

892

:

Beginning of second century

and into the third century.

893

:

Into cultures and places where people

already think they know what the soul is.

894

:

So when they read that word, suitcase,

soul, In the Greek new Testament.

895

:

They are going to define it by

what they think that word means.

896

:

Not necessarily trace back.

897

:

how to Hebrew equivalent is

used in the old Testament.

898

:

Yeah.

899

:

That makes sense.

900

:

Yeah, This idea then of this.

901

:

Body.

902

:

Soul dualism.

903

:

Is going.

904

:

To go all through.

905

:

Great culture and into

Christianity because of that.

906

:

Christian theology is a fusion.

907

:

Of Greek thought.

908

:

And Hebrew revelation and

new Testament revelation.

909

:

It's a fusion of those two things.

910

:

It is not pure.

911

:

the scripture.

912

:

And I think we have to keep that in mind.

913

:

I didn't realize this 20, 23 years ago.

914

:

I would've thought that that

was a huge overstatement.

915

:

I don't think it is now.

916

:

Hmm.

917

:

it might be an overstatement to

some degree, but it's not a big one.

918

:

So you have with an all this

time period, then this idea.

919

:

That the soul is eternal.

920

:

The soul is valuable.

921

:

The soul is precious.

922

:

It.

923

:

It's elevated.

924

:

It's part of this.

925

:

Eternal world or forums,

according to Plato.

926

:

And the body is part of this

world of form down here.

927

:

And it's going to be disposed of

it's like changing your clothes

928

:

and actually the passions.

929

:

And the body work against

the formation of the soul.

930

:

They, warp it.

931

:

When you have that.

932

:

Then you're going to end up.

933

:

One of two ways.

934

:

In how people live.

935

:

One way.

936

:

Is.

937

:

they're going to have

the severe aestheticism.

938

:

So you're going to deny bodily.

939

:

Italy pleasure so that you

could purify your soul.

940

:

And you're going to see that carried

out, especially in regards to food

941

:

and drink and sex, because those

are the most bodily pleasures.

942

:

We have usually.

943

:

And, even into the middle ages,

you would have these things

944

:

viewed as necessary evils at best.

945

:

Hmm.

946

:

I remember reading an account of a woman.

947

:

Who was questioned by the inquisition.

948

:

because of some things going on

in their village and everything.

949

:

And she related the questions

that they were asking.

950

:

And, they asked a lot of questions

asked about her sex life.

951

:

And they, she said, well, yeah,

You know, we have children.

952

:

It's a, my husband and I have had sex.

953

:

And.

954

:

And they said.

955

:

I said, did.

956

:

Did you ever had sex for the

purposes of not having children?

957

:

And then they ask, did you ever enjoy

sex and the idea being you better answer?

958

:

No.

959

:

Yeah.

960

:

that was just one sliver one way

that that whole attitude towards

961

:

human sexuality was warped by this.

962

:

So one way that you deal with this, then.

963

:

Is by.

964

:

Trying to avoid all the

bodily pleasures that you can.

965

:

You know, you have to have

some, you have to eat.

966

:

You have to drink you.

967

:

I don't have to have sex,

but if you want your.

968

:

Religion to keep on growing.

969

:

You kind of do.

970

:

But you want to minimize it?

971

:

placed restrictions on it.

972

:

The other way.

973

:

I've.

974

:

I've got a quick story.

975

:

If I go ahead.

976

:

I heard the story of an old

Benedictine monks, who They used

977

:

to wear shirts made of camel hair.

978

:

In order to denigrate the body to

try to, I guess part of that was to.

979

:

get rid of their body.

980

:

Pleasures and that sort of thing

for the purpose of letting the.

981

:

Sole be free from that.

982

:

Yeah.

983

:

I also heard.

984

:

A story of a monk who would, throw himself

in thorn bushes for the same purpose.

985

:

Okay.

986

:

The body, needs to be denied

in order to set the sole free.

987

:

So to speak.

988

:

So.

989

:

Yeah, certainly.

990

:

My reading of church history.

991

:

I've seen that a lot.

992

:

Yeah.

993

:

That reminds me.

994

:

I was reading in Colassians Where

Paul, The author of collections.

995

:

Is arguing against the philosophy

that was already taking root in the

996

:

first century when he's writing this.

997

:

And here's what he writes

in Colassians two 16.

998

:

therefore do not let anyone judge

you by what you eat or drink, or with

999

:

regard to a religious festival, a new

moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

:

00:38:06,726 --> 00:38:09,216

These are a shadow of the

things that were to come.

:

00:38:09,426 --> 00:38:11,406

The reality, however, is found in Christ.

:

00:38:11,856 --> 00:38:14,886

Do not let anyone who delights

in false humility and the

:

00:38:14,886 --> 00:38:16,776

worship of angels disqualify you.

:

00:38:17,176 --> 00:38:18,676

Since you died with Christ.

:

00:38:18,706 --> 00:38:21,406

Do the elemental spiritual

forces of this world.

:

00:38:21,466 --> 00:38:24,016

Why as though you still

belong to the world.

:

00:38:24,376 --> 00:38:25,846

Do you submit to its rules?

:

00:38:26,146 --> 00:38:29,656

Quote, do not handle, do

not taste, do not touch.

:

00:38:30,346 --> 00:38:33,646

These rules, which have to do with

things that are all destined to

:

00:38:33,646 --> 00:38:37,396

perish with use are based on merely

human commands and teachings.

:

00:38:37,859 --> 00:38:42,479

Such regulations indeed have an appearance

of wisdom with their self-imposed worship.

:

00:38:42,839 --> 00:38:44,279

There are false humility.

:

00:38:44,699 --> 00:38:46,619

And their harsh treatment of the body.

:

00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:50,759

But they lack any value in

restraining sensual indulgence.

:

00:38:51,209 --> 00:38:54,819

So already mixed up somehow with

the collage inherency was this

:

00:38:54,819 --> 00:38:56,469

harsh treatment of the body.

:

00:38:57,189 --> 00:38:57,489

Yeah.

:

00:38:57,539 --> 00:38:59,339

all these rules don't eat.

:

00:38:59,369 --> 00:39:00,509

Don't touch.

:

00:39:00,539 --> 00:39:01,589

Don't handle, right.

:

00:39:02,259 --> 00:39:06,916

Now I said that was one road you go

down when you have this, body soul.

:

00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:07,726

Dualism right.

:

00:39:08,086 --> 00:39:10,996

The other, which has to be

far, far popular is that say.

:

00:39:11,626 --> 00:39:15,046

Okay, well then if the spirits,

the only thing that matters and

:

00:39:15,046 --> 00:39:17,626

the body doesn't matter, I can

do whatever I want with my body.

:

00:39:18,226 --> 00:39:22,666

And then it doesn't matter because my

soul is all the support, so I can go out

:

00:39:22,666 --> 00:39:24,466

and I can eat, drink, you'll be married.

:

00:39:24,676 --> 00:39:26,806

I can go out and have sexual morality.

:

00:39:27,136 --> 00:39:29,026

I can go out and do all these things.

:

00:39:29,086 --> 00:39:30,226

I can get drunk or whatever.

:

00:39:30,526 --> 00:39:33,316

And those are just bodily sense,

so they don't really count.

:

00:39:33,466 --> 00:39:33,526

Hmm.

:

00:39:34,186 --> 00:39:36,496

So you have a Libertine spirit.

:

00:39:36,616 --> 00:39:39,609

And Paul talked about that too,

in some of his, uh, pencils.

:

00:39:39,939 --> 00:39:42,976

So why in Paul's world

already in the first century?

:

00:39:43,606 --> 00:39:46,336

He was warning some people

against these self-imposed.

:

00:39:46,336 --> 00:39:49,906

Rules and other people against

saying, well, the body for

:

00:39:49,906 --> 00:39:51,466

food And food for the body.

:

00:39:51,856 --> 00:39:54,376

And so it doesn't matter what I

do with my body, you know, it's.

:

00:39:55,139 --> 00:39:57,389

so he's warning against

them at the same time.

:

00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:00,029

And that's because of this.

:

00:40:00,029 --> 00:40:02,253

Body soul dualism.

:

00:40:02,696 --> 00:40:06,176

And adhering to that instead of

those Hebrew idea that the body.

:

00:40:06,176 --> 00:40:08,276

Is a good gift of God.

:

00:40:08,766 --> 00:40:10,716

an essential part of who we are.

:

00:40:11,406 --> 00:40:15,246

And it is as much a gift of

God and valuable God's side

:

00:40:15,276 --> 00:40:16,806

as any other part of us.

:

00:40:17,376 --> 00:40:17,766

Wow.

:

00:40:18,576 --> 00:40:18,876

Yeah.

:

00:40:18,996 --> 00:40:19,536

Yeah.

:

00:40:19,763 --> 00:40:21,533

I guess I never noticed.

:

00:40:21,983 --> 00:40:25,643

Those two sides stemming from

this philosophical stream

:

00:40:25,643 --> 00:40:27,686

of the body, soul dualism.

:

00:40:27,836 --> 00:40:28,076

Yeah.

:

00:40:28,613 --> 00:40:29,933

Yeah, that's how I read it anyway.

:

00:40:30,203 --> 00:40:31,013

So that's huge.

:

00:40:31,013 --> 00:40:32,363

So you're saying, is that.

:

00:40:32,753 --> 00:40:33,953

I am.

:

00:40:34,279 --> 00:40:35,239

In a sense.

:

00:40:35,629 --> 00:40:36,229

My body.

:

00:40:36,589 --> 00:40:38,299

I am in a sense, my

spirit, those two things.

:

00:40:38,299 --> 00:40:38,869

Aren't separate.

:

00:40:39,049 --> 00:40:39,739

They're not separate.

:

00:40:40,399 --> 00:40:44,273

Now, obviously Christian teaching

does have the idea that this

:

00:40:44,273 --> 00:40:45,983

particular body that we're in.

:

00:40:46,613 --> 00:40:48,683

Isn't our final form as it were.

:

00:40:49,313 --> 00:40:50,033

Or that.

:

00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:53,709

When it dies that we are

extinct as an individual.

:

00:40:54,459 --> 00:40:56,739

But has the idea rather than this.

:

00:40:56,739 --> 00:40:59,679

Forms of basis somehow in God's power.

:

00:41:00,069 --> 00:41:02,739

For a new type of embodied existence.

:

00:41:03,849 --> 00:41:06,669

So it's not clear to me that

you can get any teaching.

:

00:41:06,669 --> 00:41:11,966

From the new Testament or the old that

the soul can exist apart from the body.

:

00:41:12,536 --> 00:41:12,806

Hmm.

:

00:41:12,856 --> 00:41:14,386

I've seen some people make that argument.

:

00:41:14,386 --> 00:41:16,306

It's not clear to me that there.

:

00:41:16,326 --> 00:41:17,556

Persuasive about that.

:

00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:18,426

It seems to me.

:

00:41:18,609 --> 00:41:20,739

The drift of most of the teaching.

:

00:41:20,739 --> 00:41:22,603

About the human personality.

:

00:41:22,623 --> 00:41:26,193

Is that we are designed

to live as bodily beings.

:

00:41:26,673 --> 00:41:27,993

And that will always be the case.

:

00:41:28,293 --> 00:41:30,573

That's the way God designed it as humans.

:

00:41:30,873 --> 00:41:32,073

He's not giving up on that.

:

00:41:32,673 --> 00:41:36,003

It's a beautiful expression

of his wisdom to have bodied.

:

00:41:36,003 --> 00:41:36,873

Humans.

:

00:41:36,873 --> 00:41:40,473

Representing him, the

invisible disembodied spirit.

:

00:41:41,766 --> 00:41:43,506

again, that's how I understand it.

:

00:41:43,806 --> 00:41:47,586

Is it first Corinthians 15 or first

Corinthians 16, where he goes into

:

00:41:47,586 --> 00:41:50,076

detail about the, the resurrected bodies.

:

00:41:50,886 --> 00:41:51,996

:

:

00:41:52,926 --> 00:41:54,636

And so there is continuity.

:

00:41:54,756 --> 00:41:56,976

I mean, the illustration

he gives is a, seed that.

:

00:41:57,619 --> 00:41:58,789

As our current bodies.

:

00:41:58,789 --> 00:41:59,929

Goes in the ground and dies.

:

00:42:00,799 --> 00:42:04,669

But it resurrected, it becomes

a, tree or a plant or something.

:

00:42:04,849 --> 00:42:07,999

So there's continuity informed,

but there's still this form.

:

00:42:08,809 --> 00:42:10,339

It's not okay to see it goes.

:

00:42:10,369 --> 00:42:10,819

And then.

:

00:42:11,019 --> 00:42:13,459

something that's just

spiritual comms is that.

:

00:42:13,669 --> 00:42:15,289

It's new, having a new earth.

:

00:42:15,463 --> 00:42:17,023

we're still embodied beings.

:

00:42:18,163 --> 00:42:20,413

Now, just for clarification, is there.

:

00:42:20,569 --> 00:42:22,189

Maybe we don't want to

get into this now, but.

:

00:42:23,089 --> 00:42:24,889

Are you using soul and spirit?

:

00:42:24,889 --> 00:42:27,939

Synonymously We'll try to

make the distinction that where

:

00:42:27,939 --> 00:42:30,109

tripartite, Body, soul, and spirit.

:

00:42:30,469 --> 00:42:32,209

I've never really understood that.

:

00:42:32,446 --> 00:42:34,726

I haven't really explored

it either, but yeah.

:

00:42:35,253 --> 00:42:38,263

I tend to use it synonymously I do that.

:

00:42:38,263 --> 00:42:41,593

unconsciously, however, I'm not

trying to use them synonymously.

:

00:42:41,953 --> 00:42:45,196

It's just that they're so

associated with the inner aspect

:

00:42:45,196 --> 00:42:47,656

of man or speaking of humans.

:

00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:49,386

Inner side, you know?

:

00:42:50,016 --> 00:42:51,873

The mind thought heart.

:

00:42:52,356 --> 00:42:56,286

As far as I can tell the scriptures,

do not use consistent terminology.

:

00:42:56,706 --> 00:42:57,846

When speaking of.

:

00:42:57,846 --> 00:43:00,936

Mind body spirit as three separate parts.

:

00:43:01,439 --> 00:43:04,049

Sometimes soul and spirit

seem to be used synonymously.

:

00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:04,499

Okay.

:

00:43:04,859 --> 00:43:05,639

Yeah, I was just curious.

:

00:43:05,669 --> 00:43:05,909

Yeah.

:

00:43:06,329 --> 00:43:07,019

But of course.

:

00:43:07,243 --> 00:43:07,453

Soul.

:

00:43:07,693 --> 00:43:08,353

His suitcase.

:

00:43:08,883 --> 00:43:10,683

the spirit would be pneuma.

:

00:43:10,683 --> 00:43:12,783

which has, has the idea of breath again.

:

00:43:13,393 --> 00:43:17,286

very much relate to the original

idea of suitcase or, or nefesh.

:

00:43:17,526 --> 00:43:20,753

Um, so I, don't think the

Bible intends to use those.

:

00:43:21,233 --> 00:43:22,433

As separate parts of human.

:

00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:22,913

Humans.

:

00:43:22,943 --> 00:43:24,683

It's just uses different words.

:

00:43:24,903 --> 00:43:27,903

We're kind of the same concept

is how I would understand it.

:

00:43:28,413 --> 00:43:28,773

Gotcha.

:

00:43:28,983 --> 00:43:29,343

Gotcha.

:

00:43:30,963 --> 00:43:32,343

So . Yeah.

:

00:43:32,373 --> 00:43:33,033

That's a lot there.

:

00:43:33,033 --> 00:43:33,243

Huh?

:

00:43:33,333 --> 00:43:35,403

So I thought this was going

to be a short episode.

:

00:43:35,403 --> 00:43:35,853

I really did.

:

00:43:35,943 --> 00:43:36,843

It's just so it's.

:

00:43:37,113 --> 00:43:37,413

So fast.

:

00:43:37,443 --> 00:43:38,703

Fascinating that we're.

:

00:43:38,736 --> 00:43:41,856

Still, working through some of the

things that Batangas was working

:

00:43:41,856 --> 00:43:44,113

through, even outside of geometry class.

:

00:43:44,383 --> 00:43:44,713

Right.

:

00:43:46,573 --> 00:43:49,813

Probably the least important thing

about him from our Point of view anyway.

:

00:43:49,933 --> 00:43:50,293

Wow.

:

00:43:50,863 --> 00:43:51,133

Yeah.

:

00:43:51,586 --> 00:43:54,233

I feel like this will be a

conversation that we'll continue

:

00:43:54,233 --> 00:43:56,653

to work through as we get into.

:

00:43:56,653 --> 00:43:58,453

Plato and others.

:

00:43:58,753 --> 00:43:59,143

Yeah, sure.

:

00:43:59,173 --> 00:44:03,469

Well, cause this seems huge and I'm

really interested in continuing to.

:

00:44:03,469 --> 00:44:05,059

Think through the way that the.

:

00:44:05,096 --> 00:44:07,496

Body soul dualism has affected.

:

00:44:07,496 --> 00:44:09,476

Christianity and also.

:

00:44:09,476 --> 00:44:11,246

the implications of all that, right.

:

00:44:11,756 --> 00:44:12,896

So, yeah.

:

00:44:12,926 --> 00:44:15,116

And again, I think we're seeing here.

:

00:44:15,206 --> 00:44:19,563

The truth of that aphorism that we

started this whole playlist or the series

:

00:44:19,593 --> 00:44:20,913

about the history of philosophy about.

:

00:44:21,753 --> 00:44:23,669

We studied history not true.

:

00:44:23,699 --> 00:44:24,839

Remember the past, but to.

:

00:44:24,869 --> 00:44:25,859

Understand the present.

:

00:44:26,789 --> 00:44:28,319

And that's how this has helped me.

:

00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:29,819

And I hope it helps other people that way.

:

00:44:30,389 --> 00:44:30,809

Yeah.

:

00:44:31,769 --> 00:44:32,129

Cool.

:

00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:32,489

Cool.

:

00:44:32,519 --> 00:44:34,649

So what we do in the

body really does matter.

:

00:44:34,709 --> 00:44:35,159

It does.

:

00:44:35,819 --> 00:44:39,809

And, uh, we shouldn't just say I, well,

it doesn't matter because it's gonna go

:

00:44:39,809 --> 00:44:41,549

to hell in a hand basket or not that.

:

00:44:41,759 --> 00:44:43,199

Uh, it doesn't matter because it's.

:

00:44:43,739 --> 00:44:46,679

Just going to be done away with, and

then my soul will be resurrected.

:

00:44:47,249 --> 00:44:50,429

But we should really take

seriously what Paul says to.

:

00:44:50,429 --> 00:44:52,889

discipline our bodies because what

we do in the body effects are.

:

00:44:52,949 --> 00:44:53,969

entire personhood.

:

00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:54,569

Right.

:

00:44:54,689 --> 00:44:56,429

For good and for bad, not just for bad.

:

00:44:56,489 --> 00:44:56,759

Yeah.

:

00:44:56,909 --> 00:44:57,269

Yeah.

:

00:44:57,899 --> 00:45:00,389

That makes me think through

just all the, discussion about.

:

00:45:00,539 --> 00:45:03,209

Spiritual practices and habits

and how important those can be.

:

00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:03,509

Right.

:

00:45:04,019 --> 00:45:06,779

And general habits because we are.

:

00:45:06,779 --> 00:45:10,546

One whole being, not just

body and soul, so right.

:

00:45:10,806 --> 00:45:12,996

This is really neat and already

you can see a lot of the

:

00:45:12,996 --> 00:45:14,346

implications shining through.

:

00:45:14,706 --> 00:45:14,976

Cool.

:

00:45:15,506 --> 00:45:16,976

Well, I hope it's helpful to.

:

00:45:17,073 --> 00:45:17,673

A lot of people.

:

00:45:18,333 --> 00:45:18,603

Cool.

:

00:45:18,633 --> 00:45:19,563

Well, thank you so much.

:

00:45:19,623 --> 00:45:20,163

My pleasure.

:

00:45:20,403 --> 00:45:21,063

See you next time.

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