Episode 21

Before Philosophy (The History of Philosophy, part 1)

"We study history not to remember the past but to understand the present". That is the reason for this series.

In this episode we discuss the intellectual seed-bed of the ancient world, especially that of Greece. We begin in Crete, whose Minoan civilization predated and heavily influenced the Grecian culture on the mainland. More specifically we talk about:

  1. Who "counts" as philosophers
  2. The philosophy and thought of the Minoan civilization
  3. The meaning of monism
  4. Mysticism in the ancient world
  5. The mystery religions and their connection with philosophy
  6. How the earliest Greek thought influences our thinking today
Transcript
Speaker:

Well today, we are excited to begin a

new series on the history of philosophy.

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Yeah, we sure are.

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there's a long history here.

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Yeah.

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About 3000 years almost.

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There's a lot to cover.

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Yeah, this'll be, good.

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And it'll be over a number of episodes.

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We'll see how recording goes.

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And maybe you split some of these

into two weeks and that kind of

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thing, but there's, there's a lot here

just reading your notes from today.

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It's going to be good conversation,

but it will be full as well.

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So it will no.

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We're going to talk about

the history of philosophy.

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We're not going to talk about.

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Every aspect of every philosopher.

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We're going to focus on the main currents

of thought, how they've influenced others.

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And in particular, how they've

influenced our modern culture today.

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Those are the streams of

thought we're going to focus on.

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And try to tell a

consistent narrative story.

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Of the history of Western

thought, it's the best weekend.

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Sweet sweet.

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So this is kind of more Western thought.

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I mean, what do you

mean by Western thought?

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So Western thought would be

the philosophy basically.

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of Greek and Roman originally,

and then of Arab philosophers.

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Jewish philosophers.

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And a European and then American

and Australian philosophers.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So not so much in, Asia or

African or south American.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Well, cool.

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I think that the first question I

have is why a history of philosophy.

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I saw a movie the other night.

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And I don't remember if they're

quoting someone else or not, but

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there was a quote from that movie.

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That really resonated

with me on this point.

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And it was something like.

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We study history, not

to remember the past.

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But to understand the present.

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Hmm.

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And that's it.

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This isn't just an academic exercise.

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The ideas that we have today,

don't come out of thin air.

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They are the result of all this

stream of Western thought and idea.

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In the areas of philosophy

and religion primarily.

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Everything else comes much

later in is to certain degree

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dependent upon those things.

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Okay.

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Yeah, That makes sense.

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So it's very grounded in the

present and for the president.

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Exactly.

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Let me give you an example.

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We were talking to a

woman not too long ago.

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she was a Christian and she

said, you know, I don't have the

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normal Christian ideas though.

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About the afterlife.

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And when we explore that a bit.

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She said, well, I don't believe we just

go up to heaven and don't have a body.

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I think we have a body.

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Here on this earth.

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So I'm a little different in that.

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Yeah.

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And.

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I was thinking I'm like, well, that's

the plain teaching of the Bible is

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that we will have a resurrection body

that we will be here upon the earth.

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Yeah.

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Not some disembodied state.

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Out in a different dimension or something.

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And yet.

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The reason that resonated

with me is because I know.

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That for most people.

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Who have grown up in a certain context.

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That is the idea that they have, that

the body's just going to be cast away.

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Or we're going to live.

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Our spirits are going to live

this disembodied state in union

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with God forever in heaven.

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That is not a biblical idea.

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That is an idea that is

primarily influenced by

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Greek thought and philosophy.

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Yeah.

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So the, the point that all that

stuff affects us and how we

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think about scripture and how we

think about all these things is.

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even though it goes back

thousands of years, it's still

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very much present and alive.

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Today.

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Yes.

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I just thought of this.

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So maybe it doesn't make sense or not.

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But sometimes I do some counseling,

One of the things I've learned.

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Is that early childhood

wounds that people have.

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So not physical wounds.

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But wounds that they have in their spirit.

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They don't become less important.

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They don't become

minimize as we get older.

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Simply because time has passed.

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Rather the earlier those wounds

are and the ideas about themselves

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that people form because of that.

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The more foundational they

are to that person's thought.

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So it's actually.

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The oldest ideas out of the most important

is, is where I'm trying to get at.

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Oh, yeah.

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that's a good illustration.

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So just getting into this and we've

defined this in the past, but for

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today's episode, can you define.

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Philosophy for us once more.

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Yeah.

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And we did talk about this.

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I think the very first episode.

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Now the term just means

the love of wisdom.

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And there is no fixed definition

that all philosophers would agree on.

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So it's not like history or archeology

or physics where they're pretty

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clear lines of demarkation between.

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The disciplines.

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The line between philosophy and theology

or, religion, or even science originally.

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Is pretty fuzzy.

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There's a lot of overlap.

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But that idea basically cares the thought.

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The world we're talking

about is understanding.

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The ultimate questions of human

life and of reality itself.

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Now, usually when you talk about

a history of philosophy, you have

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to ask the question, all right.

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Who, who counts as a philosopher?

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Right?

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Who are we going to include?

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Or what kinds of thought are

we going to go into include.

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And in particular, one of the

more live questions is RK.

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Do we count, for example, sane and

slum or do we count Thomas Aquinas or

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are they theologians and philosophers?

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Even though I say Thomas Aquinas was one

of the most influential philosophers or

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figures in the history of philosophy.

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shows what you believe about

his, uh, his title there.

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Yes, it does.

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I'm showing my hand here.

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Usually there are two options.

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When people try to define who's

a philosopher and who's not, or

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what's a philosophy and what's not.

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You can define it by

subject matter and concerns.

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So the things that's dealing

with, those ultimate questions.

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Or by methodology.

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By methodology.

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What we mean is that some say

that you must rule out any

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arguments or ideas or authority.

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Apart from autonomous human reasoning.

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So what's only going to count our

people who do not have any religious

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presuppositional commitments.

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No.

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That seems flawed to me.

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Uh, because it's, it's actually making

an odd priority commitment, a commitment

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before you even begin this discussion.

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Is deciding to philosophical question.

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Whether human reasoning

is the only legitimate.

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Epistemological tool.

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Before you actually begin to

even think about philosophy.

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So it's making a philosophic choice

upfront before you even talk about

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philosophy or begin studying it.

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So that's why I tend to

go with the latter route.

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Just because of that

particular reason and because.

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I think it would be silly to exclude

people like Thomas Aquinas, even though

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he had his specific religious commitment.

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So you're, saying that he's

a philosopher because he was

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thinking deeply about these.

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biggest questions of life.

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Yes.

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And reasoning about those.

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And reasoning about those.

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Okay.

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So, so question about who's a philosopher.

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is it as broad as anybody who reasons

about the biggest, I mean, is it, is

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it fair to say everybody's, I've heard,

it said everybody's a philosopher.

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Just not, everybody's a good one.

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Well, that's true in some degree,

but when we're talking more specific

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about the history of philosophy, we're

talking about people who wrote down

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their ideas and had influence on others.

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Okay.

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So where do you even begin with

a history of philosophy then?

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You know, that's a question

I wrestled with and probably

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over-thought quite a bit.

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I want to go as far back as the written

record will allow us to go, whoa.

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How far does that go?

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I would say it goes back

to the Minoan civilization.

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Which is going to be dated.

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Between 3000 and 1100 BC.

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So right in the middle of that, around.

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2000 BC to 1500 BC.

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We have philosophical

ideas being brought forth.

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That we can talk about.

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Now the first actual philosopher.

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Usually is regarded as Dailies.

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. Okay.

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About 6 25 BC.

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So that's T H a L E S.

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Okay.

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They Alisa my latest.

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And so he's kind of the first person

who is reflecting on the biggest

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questions of life that even began.

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millennia beforehand.

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He is the first person that we

know of that was teaching things

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in a systematic and rational way.

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Oh, okay.

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Probably there were quite a few different.

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Kinds of people doing that beforehand,

but we don't have record of that.

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Okay.

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And even what we have a dailies.

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Comes much later and it's incomplete.

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So we're kind of reading

between the lines as it were.

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But.

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I want to talk about, especially

in this first episode or two.

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What happens before him?

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Because people were obviously thinking

about ultimate reality before the alleys.

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And we have to remember.

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Fairly his and the other

earliest Greek philosophers.

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I don't arrive on the scene from nowhere.

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They arrive.

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From the intellectual currents that

are around them and they're going to

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breathe those things in like the air.

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And they're going to do that for the

most part, subconsciously like we all do.

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So there are certain ideas,

thoughts, the themes.

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That are already.

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In the air in the culture that

they're going to build upon.

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they always thought is

not creation next to Hilo.

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Out of nothing is taking

preexisting thoughts and given

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his own interpretation upon them.

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So I want to, at least today

maybe next episode as well.

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Talk about those preexisting thoughts.

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That we're really the seed

bed, the foundation of all

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the early Greek philosophy.

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And really.

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That influence is still today.

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So what was some of the air that he was

breathing, the philosophical current,

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so to speak that he was writing down.

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All right.

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And where did he even get it?

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To avoid an infinite digression.

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I think we'd have to probably start.

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At Crete.

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Probably a thousand

years before it's daily.

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So 1500 to 2000 years BC.

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I think we can understand a little bit

about what the people were thinking about.

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One place to start talking about.

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This is the idea of myth.

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Myth is the universal seed

bed of thought for humanity.

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Every culture we have ever

encountered has thought in terms

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of myth, at least originally.

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But we have to understand when

we're talking about Greek myth.

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We usually get Greek myth wrong.

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We usually think wrongly about it.

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How, so what do you mean.

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We tend to think of Greek mythology

as centered on these Olympian gods.

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So you have Zeus, you have Herro, you

have Apollo and, and, and the others,

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and they reside on Mount Olympus.

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And that is certainly obviously within

Greek thought It's memorialized so well.

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And beautifully in Homer.

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Which is why we have it.

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So predominantly in our mind, But there

is an earlier stream of mythology.

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That's in with that.

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And was actually more influential.

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In the ancient world and

still has influenced today.

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So what, is the stream

or what are the streams?

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I call this The 3m theme

within the ancient Greek world.

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you could also call it

the shapeless stream.

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The shapeless dream.

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That's going to be the main idea may

metaphor here, but I call it 3m because.

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It's Minoan.

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It's mystery and it's mysticism.

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Okay, we're going to have to unpack.

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Each of those terms there.

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Yeah.

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I thought we probably would.

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What is Minoan, I've

never even heard of this.

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Okay.

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So picture the Mediterranean sea.

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Right.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So it's kinda like this oval

or like an egg on its side.

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And then right at the very top of

that, from our perspective, usually

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when we look at a map, you have

grease like a hand reaching down.

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With its fingers into the heart of

the Mediterranean and then right

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near where those fingers reach down.

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There's a very large island called Crete.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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You've probably seen the map.

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Yeah.

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Sure.

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I flew over at once.

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It was pretty cool.

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Did you meet some unknowns?

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No, I flew over it.

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but their increase was

the first European city.

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Kenosis.

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And that is the heart of what's

called the Minoan civilization.

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No.

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Creates position right there

meant that it was strategically

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located at the crossroads.

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Have a lot of different trading routes.

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But also the civilization, those

trading routes were attached to with

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their own ideas and their own cultures.

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And their own MIS.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah.

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Really?

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I think probably if you understand what

happens here, you're understanding.

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What's happening in a large

part of the civilized world.

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At least the part of it that's west

of, um, into your China at least.

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Okay.

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So it's the crossroads of the

Mediterranean, so to speak.

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It was then.

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Okay.

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It was then because remember

kenosis is going to predate.

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Almost any city, on the Greek mainland,

it's called the first city of Europe.

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Okay.

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and what time period are

we talking about here?

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There seems to be some sort of

settlements as early as:

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But most people date.

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Minoan civilization from about 2000 BC.

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So this is, way before.

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Socrates and Plato and Homer and

centuries and centuries before.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And this is part of their culture

and heritage, because these

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ideas, they don't get discarded.

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They just get buried in the

subconscious of a culture, basically.

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But what's interesting is

that these particular ideas

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that we'll be talking about.

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Don't actually get buried as

much as they continue to flow.

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All the way.

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Until the end of, how lending culture.

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And in fact.

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If you look at Greek culture

as a whole, For the most part.

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The mythology of Manoa.

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the mythology of Minoan culture.

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Is going to be more influential

than the Olympian mythology

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and the Greek philosophy.

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Oh, wow.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So I'm, really curious to unpack that.

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Are we, ready to impact

some of the influence there?

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Sure.

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So Just by way of explanation, by the way.

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They didn't call themselves the Minoans.

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We don't know what they call themselves

because we're reading between the lines.

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We don't have a lot of materials where.

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We're understanding a lot of this through

archeology rather than through literature.

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Um, but there seems to be a pretty good

consensus on what the archeology tells us.

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Arthur Evans was a British archeologist.

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And uh, about a century

ago, a little bit more.

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He excavated this city of

kenosis on the island of Crete.

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He saw all these intricate

underground rooms, like a labyrinth.

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And to him are recalled the, the myth.

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of king minus and the Minotaur and the

Minotaur is living in the labyrinth.

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he had rule over.

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The Greek mainland and they had to

in the G and then they had to send

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these, young men and young women

to be sacrifices to the Minotaur.

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Who's this half bull have human

monster that lived in this labyrinth

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that no one could figure out the way.

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He named it.

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Minoa because of that, but we don't

actually know what it's called.

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Okay.

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But we do know some things

about the religion in there.

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Thought.

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we know that they spread their.

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wares and their knowledge

around the Mediterranean.

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maybe I'll break this down into two parts,

but they're going to be very much related.

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Okay.

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So Minoan religion, and

then Minoan philosophy.

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So one of the things you

see is that the people.

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Other time as part of the

religious rights were led into a

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cave or a part of the underworld.

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So they're going down to the earth.

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Alright.

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Okay.

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And then as I go down into the earth,

As part of some ritual they're given.

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In toxicants or drugs that

would cause hallucinations.

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So it's not exactly clear what this is.

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If it's some sort of something

like a magic mushrooms.

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Or if it was something

a little bit different.

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But they had some sort of

altered state experience.

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Sometimes this would be seen as

something like, you know, Tree dying.

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And you're in this cave.

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You're buried.

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You're in mother earth as it were.

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And then you have this.

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Alter state experienced something akin

to dine, and then you come out of that

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and You have your, your life after that?

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And there seems to be implicit

in this what's really important

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is that this altered state.

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Is about.

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Union with the divine,

not a personal divine.

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But with the stream of being the shapeless

stream that runs through all things.

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That's a segue then

into Minoan philosophy.

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We'll talk about that stream.

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Yeah, so already you can see

That the theme of death and

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resurrection union with God.

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that's crazy to see those

themes all the way back then.

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It's not like these are new ideas.

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Death and resurrection.

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And you get with God, right?

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Exactly.

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so that was kind of their

prac oh yeah, go ahead.

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The way that you would unite with God is

going to be quite a bit different than

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say Christian thought, but yeah, but yeah.

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Yeah.

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Got to get super high and.

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Yes.

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Interesting.

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So that's of the

religious practice, right?

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But again, there's no clear separation

between religion and philosophy

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in any part of the ancient world.

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I think we can kind of

separate some of those out.

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And I've tried to do that here.

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so the religious would be like

the definition of that would

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maybe be like more practice.

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But the philosophy would be kind

of like the ideas that go behind

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or underneath the practice.

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Is that how you're defining it?

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That's kind of the distinction I'm making.

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Okay.

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But again, that's not a distinction

you would make in nature at world.

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Okay.

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So the shapeless stream.

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The shapeless stream.

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This is the idea that there is this.

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The stream or current.

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Of Reality or life or energy.

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That flows endlessly in a cycle.

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So think of a, of a literal

stream, but it doesn't have any.

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Does it have any banks or borders?

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It doesn't have any depth that just flows.

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And then think of that, kind of like

the precipitation cycle, you know,

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the water flows into the ocean.

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And then the, the ocean evaporates

the water into the clouds, the clouds,

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rain down and create the stream again.

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So time is cyclical.

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Okay.

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Uh, that's an idea that you'll later

find in some of the Greek philosophers,

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but especially in Eastern thought.

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Yeah.

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It's given me some flashbacks to

some of our earlier conversations.

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Yes.

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And to me, at least it's unclear, which

influenced the other, but it's there.

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Oh, that's super interesting too.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So you had this.

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This endless shapeless

stream of life or being.

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And then individual things.

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People.

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Plants animals.

454

:

They're almost like all certain part

of that shapeless stream of a being.

455

:

Takes physical form for awhile.

456

:

Maybe.

457

:

Five years.

458

:

Maybe 10 years.

459

:

Depending on what plant or animal it is.

460

:

Maybe 80 years, if it's a human.

461

:

And then when it dies,

it goes back into that.

462

:

Endless shapeless stream.

463

:

That is the heart of this.

464

:

Now that idea.

465

:

Think through that.

466

:

Everything ultimately is

one, it's a shapeless stream.

467

:

It's not a person.

468

:

It's a force.

469

:

It's a thing.

470

:

So that's the ultimate reality.

471

:

And it's guided by

another impersonal force.

472

:

You would call fate.

473

:

Something like that.

474

:

So there's no.

475

:

Person.

476

:

Guiding this to create certain

forms by purpose or by will.

477

:

It just happens irrationally.

478

:

So you've got the shapeless dream.

479

:

Now.

480

:

What happens then?

481

:

Well, Your goal.

482

:

Is when you have those

experiences is to somehow.

483

:

Reenact that union that you

had with that shapeless dream.

484

:

And then also perceived what is to

come, that you will go back into that.

485

:

So there is an idea inherent here.

486

:

There is a rational idea.

487

:

But you understand that now by argument,

or even by a tradition, but more by

488

:

union, this mystical union that's

brought about by these hallucinogenic.

489

:

experiences and, substances.

490

:

So that's the heart of this.

491

:

And then.

492

:

This seems to be mixed in together

with this idea that there is a, mother

493

:

goddess mother earth earth itself as.

494

:

the symbol and the ultimate.

495

:

physical expression of this

shapeless dream of being.

496

:

you go down to the earth because

that's where he came from.

497

:

That's where you gonna go.

498

:

You have this dual image

or birth and nourishment.

499

:

But then also death.

500

:

The earth gives life to things

within it, takes it back.

501

:

sometimes you would have then.

502

:

A figure of a mother goddess.

503

:

And often you would have lesser daemons.

504

:

So that is a word for

some sort of lesser God.

505

:

So not, not demon they're related,

but they're different words.

506

:

This is D a E M O N.

507

:

Uh, yeah, they're related, but

there are different words actually.

508

:

So it's Trying to understand that

the concepts of like good and bad.

509

:

Right and wrong.

510

:

Is that kind of how they're making

sense of this or not really?

511

:

Actually no ethical component is

almost entirely absent in this.

512

:

Oh, okay.

513

:

So the demons are not good or bad.

514

:

They're just other nature gods who are

consorts of mother earth too, but they're

515

:

much lesser status and she is okay.

516

:

His mother earth, a good.

517

:

Person or figure or what, however it

being, uh, Moral status attributed to her.

518

:

Not that I've ever seen.

519

:

She just is.

520

:

And it's unclear whether you believe

that that is a person or you creating

521

:

this figure to represent the.

522

:

The irrational forces that

don't have a personality.

523

:

Okay.

524

:

I think probably more the ladder.

525

:

Kind of anthropomorphism.

526

:

Yeah.

527

:

Okay.

528

:

So the moral and ethic.

529

:

Peace is absent.

530

:

That's that's super interesting to

think about A culture where part of

531

:

their, math is not related to morals.

532

:

Um, I'm wondering if there's other

things that aren't present that.

533

:

Get built upon later.

534

:

Yeah, there is.

535

:

Let's explore that one part though.

536

:

What are the things that amazed me

when I started studying more ancient

537

:

religions and philosophy as was.

538

:

That morality wasn't really much of

an issue for most ancient religions.

539

:

That seems really surprising.

540

:

Yeah.

541

:

Because for us, it's at the heart of it.

542

:

Right.

543

:

But if you went through the rituals

back then you did so for religious

544

:

reasons, but for the most part,

these guys are not interested.

545

:

And telling you how to be moral

people or what you should actually do.

546

:

They're more interested in you doing

the certain rights or experiences.

547

:

Hmm.

548

:

Maybe this is more a sociological question

than a philosophical question, but did

549

:

they not have rules and laws and that

kind of thing as well, or just maybe

550

:

that stuff wasn't grounded in the divine.

551

:

It wasn't necessarily

grounded in the divine.

552

:

Okay.

553

:

There would be rules, of course, but

these were rules primarily, primarily

554

:

that were designed to help the city stay.

555

:

So there are more laws

than inward ethical duties.

556

:

Okay.

557

:

So as long as you followed the laws

and you did the rights, you were.

558

:

You know, you were good.

559

:

There wasn't this inward

heartburn, morality or ethics that

560

:

become the central part of the

monotheistic religions, at least.

561

:

So it wasn't an emphasis

on character development.

562

:

No, for example.

563

:

Okay.

564

:

No.

565

:

Huh.

566

:

Notice officer, you said, what

else is not present in this?

567

:

Well, It's not really something that

you rationally discovering, argue about.

568

:

It's more based upon experience.

569

:

So if you going to talk about

epistemology, how you know things.

570

:

This is not a rationalistic

type of philosophy.

571

:

This is an experiential type.

572

:

Um, it's irrational.

573

:

It's more mystical.

574

:

We'll talk about that.

575

:

It's also Mona's stick.

576

:

It's also Okay.

577

:

What do you mean by that?

578

:

So, Mona ism is the idea

that everything is one.

579

:

That like the Eastern doc.

580

:

Kind of thing.

581

:

Yes.

582

:

Okay.

583

:

Yes.

584

:

Eastern thought is usually monistic.

585

:

Okay.

586

:

So Mona's and says that everything

ultimately boils down to one thing.

587

:

And then other individual things

you have to explain in some way.

588

:

And that becomes the real challenge.

589

:

When you have a Mona's

tick system of thought.

590

:

But this is Monez because

there's one primary thing and

591

:

that's the shapeless stream.

592

:

And things come and go out of that.

593

:

But they don't ever have

their own separate status.

594

:

That's eternal.

595

:

They just exist for a little

while in some physical form.

596

:

And then they go back into that.

597

:

Hmm.

598

:

And That idea of a Mon ism

that underlies reality.

599

:

You're going to see that

again and again, and again.

600

:

In Greek thought and

not just Greek thought.

601

:

It is a perpetual.

602

:

I'm not going to say temptation

because that's a loaded word.

603

:

It's a perpetual idea that many

people go back to that all is one.

604

:

And then.

605

:

The big question is going to be in

the big problem for Greek philosophy

606

:

all the way through Plato, at least.

607

:

Is between the one and the many.

608

:

How do you explain for the oneness of

everything, but also individual things?

609

:

So, yeah.

610

:

So that idea of the one and

the many goes back centuries,

611

:

centuries, maybe even a millennium.

612

:

Before Plato, Gabe.

613

:

What many people regard as kind

of the definitive answer to

614

:

that from a Greek point of view.

615

:

Wow.

616

:

. Okay.

617

:

I want to bring us back.

618

:

For a second.

619

:

Cause you're talking about

the, maybe three different,

620

:

influences the 3m or the three.

621

:

The shapeless stream that we're

talking about a minute ago.

622

:

You said my know, and we just

kind of have unpacked that a

623

:

little bit coming from Crete.

624

:

And some of the philosophy and maybe

religious practices coming from there.

625

:

But you mentioned these other two

AMS, which were mystery and mysticism.

626

:

And so I'm wondering if we

can go ahead and, talk about.

627

:

Mystery religions.

628

:

Yeah.

629

:

And that's what he mean by mystery is

what you would call mystery religions or

630

:

what they were at least called that later.

631

:

I'm not sure when they started

getting that designation.

632

:

But it's apt because there are

dealing with the mysteries of this

633

:

world and how to understand them.

634

:

They're also called nature religion

sometimes because they have a lot of

635

:

similarities with, nature religions.

636

:

You're going to see that

these actually start.

637

:

With the Minoans.

638

:

I mean, their thought is

obviously based upon this.

639

:

But these mystery religions.

640

:

Are going to extend for

centuries in their influence.

641

:

And when you read the new Testament,

the epistles are written to people.

642

:

Who are dealing with initiates of the

mystery, religion, all around that.

643

:

So, for example, if Paul's writing

to the church in emphasis, in what,

644

:

70, 80, or something like that.

645

:

That idea of a mystery,

religion, or mystery religions.

646

:

It's going to be a very prevalent,

I would guess I can't prove this.

647

:

And I don't know of anyone who's tried

to, I would guess more people than not.

648

:

In a city like emphasis or Corinth.

649

:

Who were not Christians or Jews.

650

:

We're probably initiates of

one of the mystery religions.

651

:

Okay.

652

:

One of those may be

being related to Artemis.

653

:

Yeah, that's one of them.

654

:

I mean, they're all kinds,

but They had some similarities

655

:

and they had differences.

656

:

Okay, these mystery

religions maybe started.

657

:

loosely based on what was happening

in Crete, but maybe they got taken or

658

:

transported because it was a crossroads

of the Mediterranean kind of area.

659

:

And then they kind of go to these

different locations and they just

660

:

kind of begin to develop like that.

661

:

And.

662

:

get intermixed with other, myths

going on with those pockets

663

:

around the Mediterranean.

664

:

Is that, is that.

665

:

Yeah, especially the north Mediterranean.

666

:

Okay.

667

:

I don't know if there were much in the way

of mystery religions and say north Africa.

668

:

Or, Palestine.

669

:

I can't answer that.

670

:

But.

671

:

from my own limited knowledge, I'm

thinking, especially in the north half

672

:

as it were, oh, the Mediterranean basin.

673

:

It's the, spin-offs.

674

:

Influenced by.

675

:

what.

676

:

The Minoans perhaps influenced by

maybe other things, but they begin to

677

:

take root and there's some patterns.

678

:

Yes.

679

:

historians and philosophers can kind of

point to that have shown their influence.

680

:

Yes.

681

:

And then they will.

682

:

Join together.

683

:

Ties with some of the Olympian,

religion deities later on.

684

:

And then they're going to morph

into more full system of Gnosticism.

685

:

A little bit in the century

or two after Christ.

686

:

So this is still pre.

687

:

Socrates and Plato and Aristotle.

688

:

but it's, pre Mount Olympus.

689

:

As well.

690

:

Yes, but it's also contemporary with

them and going past them in history.

691

:

Contemporary with them

just forming indifferent.

692

:

location in different

geographic locations.

693

:

Oh, they're going to be mixed

together even in the same city.

694

:

Okay.

695

:

I know this is why earlier, it

was difficult to point to like

696

:

the specifics of polytheistic.

697

:

Religions or philosophies because

they're so diverse, right?

698

:

but.

699

:

there's going to be some, you said

syncretism going on and all that.

700

:

Yeah.

701

:

Think of it as a river Delta.

702

:

So you have one main

stream or one main flow.

703

:

But then it begins to Virgin into

all these separate channels and

704

:

then Southern channels joined

together with other channels.

705

:

And then maybe they diverge again.

706

:

That's kind of what's going on

here with, these mystery religions,

707

:

a Greek thought in general.

708

:

Okay.

709

:

Yeah, that muddies the water quite

a bit, but what are some of the,

710

:

Kinds or what would maybe be some

of the, families of those mystery

711

:

religions or would that kind of thing.

712

:

Let's explore one of these mystery

religions, because I think it's

713

:

probably the most influential.

714

:

And that is the Ellucian

religions and Colts.

715

:

Based upon the city of

Elisha, which is near Athens.

716

:

Is that like the brewing

company from Seattle?

717

:

I have no idea.

718

:

Okay.

719

:

I don't know that brewing company.

720

:

Okay.

721

:

So there was a.

722

:

Suburb of Athens, maybe that's

probably not the right word.

723

:

There was a city nearby.

724

:

Athens.

725

:

Called Alyssia.

726

:

Or Lucia.

727

:

And it's estimated.

728

:

That for a good part of this timeframe,

we're talking about the majority.

729

:

Of Athenian citizens.

730

:

We're actually initiates of this

LOC Tinian mystery religion.

731

:

So put that in your mind.

732

:

This is the same Athens

where you've got these Greek

733

:

philosophers doing their thing.

734

:

But at the same time, a majority of

the people are going to be initiates.

735

:

I have this mystery, religion,

this one particular branch.

736

:

That's pretty mind blowing and.

737

:

when I understood that when I read that.

738

:

Like, wow.

739

:

I had no idea.

740

:

Wow.

741

:

All right.

742

:

So what happens.

743

:

This is a really good example of the

mystery religions, but also the way that.

744

:

Religion and philosophy worked together

and also how divorce it was from ethics.

745

:

Like we were just talking about.

746

:

So once a year, there would be

a yearly festival at Elisha.

747

:

People would go.

748

:

And you would go to become an initiate.

749

:

So you would go once in your

lifetime, kind of like a

750

:

pilgrimage to Mecca or something.

751

:

And after that you're considered in

initia, you were part of the group.

752

:

And during this time, When you went

to this festival, you would be led

753

:

down into an underworld or a cave.

754

:

Sound familiar.

755

:

It does.

756

:

Yeah.

757

:

Yeah.

758

:

And you would be given

some sort of intoxicant.

759

:

Oh, okay.

760

:

Again with the mushrooms.

761

:

Yeah.

762

:

Again with the mushrooms or something

that would cause Hallucinations or

763

:

an altered state of consciousness.

764

:

Okay.

765

:

And that part's pretty clear.

766

:

So there's some sort of altered state.

767

:

It's often described as death, like

the old person that you were dies.

768

:

And now, as an, initiative, that's gone

through this, you were a new person.

769

:

like a new birth or rebirth.

770

:

Yeah.

771

:

I'm not sure these a term or not.

772

:

Right.

773

:

But they would consider

themselves change people.

774

:

and then you would go back.

775

:

To your normal way of life.

776

:

So there's no moral, there's

no ethical part of this.

777

:

There's this some sort of mystical

union brought about through substances.

778

:

That produces some sort of altered state

that has spiritual significance for you.

779

:

some sort of union, I think would be

the right way to think about that.

780

:

Okay.

781

:

So we've talked about Minoan culture.

782

:

As one of the AMS, we've talked about

the mystery religions as one of the AMS.

783

:

And then the third one is mysticism.

784

:

So what's mysticism.

785

:

What's the, link between

the other two here.

786

:

Yeah, it's kind of the common

thread that runs between these two.

787

:

And there's something that we

still have with us in many ways.

788

:

We're good at it for

about, it's a, human trait.

789

:

It's not necessarily a philosophical idea,

so it can be used for good or for bad.

790

:

I defined mysticism as basically

trying to experience God through

791

:

immediate and non rational means.

792

:

immediate, what I mean

is it's not mediated.

793

:

It doesn't come through.

794

:

Righteousness, holy living, learning

the scriptures or other things.

795

:

Or through things like sacraments.

796

:

So it doesn't come through.

797

:

Those is something that

you receive more directly.

798

:

That's what I mean.

799

:

I see, I see.

800

:

So using kind of the technical.

801

:

Yes.

802

:

Yeah.

803

:

So not, not right away, but

not through, not mediated.

804

:

Right.

805

:

Exactly.

806

:

And then it's non rational.

807

:

So you're looking at an experience.

808

:

Not a teaching, not a doctrine.

809

:

You're looking at a union with the

divine, as you understand that.

810

:

That's at the heart of mysticism.

811

:

one of the questions here is

Did people pick these religions?

812

:

Did they decide between these.

813

:

Or is it just something that they're

born into and they just embraced

814

:

it because it was part of their

cultural and tribal heritage.

815

:

I would guess it'd be part of both.

816

:

Yeah.

817

:

So certainly when you come to the later

stages of Greek culture or early Roman

818

:

culture, You would, if you were in a large

enough city, have a choice of which Mr.

819

:

Religions.

820

:

you wanted to become an initiative.

821

:

but for most people, especially earlier

centuries, There's going to be one

822

:

predominant way of thought, right?

823

:

And almost everyone's going to.

824

:

Cling to that.

825

:

Okay.

826

:

You're not saying that it's.

827

:

Irrational.

828

:

But you're just saying it's non rational.

829

:

There's not this emphasis that we have now

post enlightenment on rationality Yeah.

830

:

And irrational I'm used to.

831

:

More technical terms.

832

:

So not in a pejorative term.

833

:

For example, I believe that we

choose to believe what we believe

834

:

about God or ultimate things.

835

:

For both rational and

non rational reasons.

836

:

So rational would be logic.

837

:

thinking through.

838

:

Reasoning.

839

:

looking at the evidence and then reasoning

based upon that irrational would be

840

:

choice things that choose to value.

841

:

My own experiences.

842

:

those are things you don't

put into an argument and you

843

:

can't put it into an argument.

844

:

Now irrational sometimes can mean.

845

:

Crazy and anti rational.

846

:

And that's not what I'm

trying to convey here.

847

:

You're just saying that there's an

emphasis in this, on your experience

848

:

of union with the divine, not.

849

:

weighing the evidence Right.

850

:

Okay.

851

:

Yeah.

852

:

That's helpful.

853

:

Yep.

854

:

Again, a large part of this

you're seeking experience.

855

:

You are not seeking

knowledge, at least not.

856

:

intellectual knowledge.

857

:

And this experience bypasses the

mind, but it also bypasses the body.

858

:

So this isn't something.

859

:

That you do, for example, like you would.

860

:

Take in a sacrament or that you

would work to serve other people.

861

:

this is an experience of your inner being.

862

:

That your body doesn't

really participate in.

863

:

Which is ironic because it comes

through physical substances.

864

:

The hallucinogenics, right.

865

:

But the point is that what the inner

part of you, the non bodily part That is

866

:

some sort of a temporary manifestation

of this shapeless stream is now

867

:

communing with the shapeless stream.

868

:

In some way.

869

:

Hmm.

870

:

So that's what I'm trying

to get across there.

871

:

Hmm.

872

:

and in this, we see kind of the first idea

of humans being made of different parts.

873

:

Body.

874

:

And mind.

875

:

And then spirit or soul.

876

:

This idea.

877

:

that we have separate parts.

878

:

This is not Hebrew thought.

879

:

This is dumb.

880

:

Bible thought.

881

:

This is Greek thought and the

earliest kinds of Greek thought.

882

:

Oh, man.

883

:

That's that's interesting.

884

:

Yeah.

885

:

Does it conflict with biblical

thought or maybe it's.

886

:

I don't know.

887

:

Yeah, that's a great question.

888

:

I think it can.

889

:

I think, The Bible will

use these terms, obviously.

890

:

Yeah, but you can use a

term in two different ways.

891

:

You can use a term like

Seoul in two different ways.

892

:

You can use it as it's this thing

that's separate from your body.

893

:

That existed.

894

:

before your body and will exist after.

895

:

Or you can view it as one aspect

of your body, like your strength.

896

:

Or, your loving, Or your

thoughts, things that.

897

:

Yeah, you can talk about them.

898

:

Conceptually and make them distinct in

your mind in that way, but they're all

899

:

in mesh so closely with who you are.

900

:

That you can't separate those things

and, have them as a separate entity.

901

:

Apart from you.

902

:

Yeah, it seems that, Paul seemed

to talk about Christianity,

903

:

being a very embodied thing.

904

:

And what happens in the body

affects what's in the spirit.

905

:

And vice versa.

906

:

Yes.

907

:

No, not like they're, they're distinct.

908

:

And separate and that one doesn't

affect the other, so right.

909

:

Yeah.

910

:

And I think the, the Bible

project put this very well We

911

:

are not people who have a soul.

912

:

We are a soul.

913

:

And we are in Seoul.

914

:

That's.

915

:

By necessity and flushed within a body.

916

:

Hmm.

917

:

So.

918

:

At the heart that's who we are.

919

:

So going back all the

way to the beginning.

920

:

To have a conceptualization

of having that's disembodied.

921

:

you are in a sense.

922

:

Your body.

923

:

Yes.

924

:

You're all your personality,

all your emotions, all your

925

:

intellect, all your rationality.

926

:

Is embodied in you.

927

:

And it doesn't really make sense

to have a disembodied spirit that

928

:

is you floating somewhere in the

ether because it wouldn't be, you.

929

:

Okay.

930

:

Ah, it's, it's just super interesting.

931

:

Yeah.

932

:

And in a different way of thinking.

933

:

Cause I feel like.

934

:

And seeing this, I, think some

of my own thinking is influenced.

935

:

Oh yeah.

936

:

I think of mind, body and soul,

like being distinct entity

937

:

sometimes like that, just sure.

938

:

but maybe I've just assumed that.

939

:

And it's just coming from.

940

:

Historical heritage or philosophical.

941

:

Exactly.

942

:

Yeah.

943

:

It's part of the year that we breathe.

944

:

Yeah.

945

:

Even people who are not religious at all.

946

:

Make a distinction between body, soul,

spirit as if Their body and their

947

:

soul are separate things, you know?

948

:

so it's not just people who come

from a religious tradition that view.

949

:

This is part of our ongoing

thought in the Western world.

950

:

There are body and soul and

spirit, or sometimes people

951

:

will just say body and soul.

952

:

Are these things that could be divided.

953

:

Yeah, in depth, divides them like your

body dies, but your spirit lives forever.

954

:

Right?

955

:

Now.

956

:

When you come to Christianity

in the new Testament.

957

:

You see that there is a sense in which.

958

:

the death of our physical body here is

Does not mean that we are distinguished.

959

:

It means that God's power is

then able to recreate that body

960

:

and soul in a different way.

961

:

So we will still have

an embodied existence.

962

:

Our body will be different in way

that we can understand right now.

963

:

But the point of what Paul was

teaching, for example, in first

964

:

Corinthians 15, it's very clear.

965

:

The goal is not a disembodied existence.

966

:

That may not even be possible.

967

:

Maybe, maybe it is.

968

:

Maybe God can do that.

969

:

But the goal is that we are reformed

body and soul into a new beam.

970

:

That we have a physical

existence upon the earth.

971

:

Hmm.

972

:

My mind's gone crazy right now.

973

:

Cause we talk, what

happens after you die and.

974

:

if the biblical conception is

that okay, we're embodied souls.

975

:

Then maybe that's not really a good

question because maybe there isn't

976

:

any, maybe there's no conscious

waiting before the resurrection may be

977

:

just like the consciousness resumed.

978

:

With the resurrection.

979

:

I don't know.

980

:

I'm just thinking about this

kind of all for the first time.

981

:

Sure.

982

:

Yeah.

983

:

And maybe that's the case from

our experience, at least that.

984

:

When we, and this is kicking

off topic a little bit.

985

:

Yeah.

986

:

Uh, the, when we die from our experience,

because we seize consciousness.

987

:

But we are restored to

consciousness through Christ.

988

:

resurrecting us or God

resurrecting us with Christ rather.

989

:

The, when that happens in our experience,

one follows immediately after the other.

990

:

Even though from an outside

observer, there may be a gap of

991

:

time between those two things.

992

:

Hmm.

993

:

Wow.

994

:

I can talk about this all day.

995

:

Yeah.

996

:

Let let me bring us back here.

997

:

So we talked about the three AMS.

998

:

we talked about how There've been

some themes about death and going

999

:

into the ground and hallucinogenics,

and then union with the wine and

:

00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,840

kind of this Mon ism kind of thought.

:

00:40:58,863 --> 00:41:02,523

And it all begins and create and

then kind of moves out and then mixes

:

00:41:02,523 --> 00:41:03,813

with cultures and all this stuff.

:

00:41:04,233 --> 00:41:05,373

one of the questions I have.

:

00:41:05,373 --> 00:41:08,073

Is related to the Olympian gods.

:

00:41:08,223 --> 00:41:08,493

Okay.

:

00:41:09,003 --> 00:41:09,123

Yeah.

:

00:41:09,153 --> 00:41:10,653

So, when did these guys come in?

:

00:41:11,340 --> 00:41:13,230

What's the influence because

we talked about them.

:

00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,400

Showing up simultaneously.

:

00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,820

Or at least in the same time, As some

of these mystery religions around

:

00:41:18,820 --> 00:41:20,440

the north, part of the Mediterranean.

:

00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:24,550

So walk us through the Olympian gods

and how that was all formulated.

:

00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:25,090

Okay.

:

00:41:25,203 --> 00:41:27,303

Well, it goes beyond my expertise.

:

00:41:27,303 --> 00:41:27,663

Certainly.

:

00:41:28,443 --> 00:41:29,943

From what I understand though.

:

00:41:29,993 --> 00:41:32,423

Homer and he's yet are the ones that we.

:

00:41:32,423 --> 00:41:34,493

look to when we think

about the Olympian gods.

:

00:41:35,123 --> 00:41:39,203

And Homer of course is more familiar

to us, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

:

00:41:39,953 --> 00:41:42,299

But He's placing all this activity.

:

00:41:42,350 --> 00:41:44,210

500 years before when he's writing.

:

00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:45,110

So he's writing..

:

00:41:45,469 --> 00:41:50,223

Something like the eighth century BC,

. We don't know the exact dates on Homer.

:

00:41:50,539 --> 00:41:52,069

So he's writing them.

:

00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:56,959

And at that time, then he's got to have

that background of people who already

:

00:41:56,959 --> 00:41:59,239

know about these guys to some degree.

:

00:41:59,929 --> 00:42:01,249

So probably.

:

00:42:02,003 --> 00:42:04,883

at least by eight or 900 BC, you have.

:

00:42:04,903 --> 00:42:08,923

The worship of the Olympian gods, or

at least people familiar with them.

:

00:42:09,133 --> 00:42:10,093

Yeah, that makes sense.

:

00:42:10,513 --> 00:42:11,863

Unless he's just making it up.

:

00:42:13,093 --> 00:42:14,593

Is there any possibility that he is?

:

00:42:14,593 --> 00:42:15,763

He's just writing a story.

:

00:42:16,003 --> 00:42:19,873

I think archeology, you have

other evidence of, of people

:

00:42:19,873 --> 00:42:21,343

recognizing and worshiping the gods.

:

00:42:21,703 --> 00:42:22,243

Before.

:

00:42:22,543 --> 00:42:23,503

Homer would be dated.

:

00:42:24,403 --> 00:42:28,396

And, but what's interesting though,

is that later on, say by about.

:

00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:30,656

400 BC, 300 BC.

:

00:42:31,369 --> 00:42:34,249

The Olympian guys are not

really that honored anymore.

:

00:42:34,249 --> 00:42:38,089

They're not looked up to you have revival,

the same themes and sometimes the same.

:

00:42:38,136 --> 00:42:40,896

Activities with their earlier

stream, the shapeless stream

:

00:42:40,926 --> 00:42:41,916

that we were talking about.

:

00:42:42,779 --> 00:42:46,869

in that sense, we tend to view the

Olympian gods as defining all a Greek

:

00:42:46,869 --> 00:42:48,219

ancient history in the worldview.

:

00:42:48,609 --> 00:42:51,219

But it was more, not a

blip on the radar screen.

:

00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:52,119

It was much more than that.

:

00:42:52,509 --> 00:42:56,293

But it certainly wasn't the dominant

way people thought about mythology.

:

00:42:56,293 --> 00:42:57,343

In ancient Greece.

:

00:42:57,373 --> 00:42:59,893

If you look at the whole history,

that's totally different than I.

:

00:42:59,893 --> 00:43:00,763

Would've imagined.

:

00:43:00,823 --> 00:43:01,693

I mean, Yeah.

:

00:43:02,653 --> 00:43:04,213

And there seems to be.

:

00:43:04,213 --> 00:43:05,953

Uh, parallel between people.

:

00:43:05,953 --> 00:43:11,893

Beginning to develop city states and

then worshiping the Olympian gods instead

:

00:43:11,893 --> 00:43:14,293

of the previous more irrational God.

:

00:43:14,623 --> 00:43:17,143

Uh, God's or divine or

however you want to call it.

:

00:43:17,923 --> 00:43:20,953

So there seem to be then an

understanding we need order.

:

00:43:21,223 --> 00:43:24,229

We need harmony and that's

what the Olympian gods did.

:

00:43:24,629 --> 00:43:27,189

they emphasized order and harmony.

:

00:43:27,189 --> 00:43:29,139

They emphasize masculine traits.

:

00:43:29,139 --> 00:43:30,219

As they understood them.

:

00:43:30,669 --> 00:43:34,509

Uh, Paula was kind of the arch type, you

know, he was a warrior, but he was also,

:

00:43:34,509 --> 00:43:36,759

this very rational being appropriate.

:

00:43:37,089 --> 00:43:38,379

Proportions and harmony.

:

00:43:38,926 --> 00:43:40,846

So you had this outward orientation.

:

00:43:41,276 --> 00:43:42,573

So I remember in the previous.

:

00:43:42,573 --> 00:43:44,763

mythology had a dour orientation.

:

00:43:44,763 --> 00:43:45,753

You went into the earth.

:

00:43:46,083 --> 00:43:47,193

There was mother earth.

:

00:43:47,673 --> 00:43:48,613

Now you have.

:

00:43:48,613 --> 00:43:52,873

Zeus as the ultimate one on top of

this highest mountain in Greece.

:

00:43:53,713 --> 00:43:55,153

And he had people viewing.

:

00:43:55,153 --> 00:43:57,786

The guys is basically

inhabiting the sky region.

:

00:43:57,996 --> 00:43:59,556

That's where their

activities are kind of at.

:

00:43:59,856 --> 00:44:03,516

So, so they reside there on Mount

Olympus, but really, I think.

:

00:44:03,573 --> 00:44:05,613

There's more of an

emphasis that these people.

:

00:44:05,749 --> 00:44:07,429

Our dwelling in the sky as it were.

:

00:44:07,879 --> 00:44:11,629

So it's an outward orientation

has to be downward it's masculine

:

00:44:11,629 --> 00:44:12,619

instead of the feminine.

:

00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:16,149

It's ordered in harmony

instead of the irrational.

:

00:44:16,149 --> 00:44:17,319

And mystical union.

:

00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:20,829

And so There's quite a bit

of difference between these.

:

00:44:21,219 --> 00:44:23,899

And all this is going to

be mixed together then.

:

00:44:23,899 --> 00:44:24,859

In Greek culture.

:

00:44:25,896 --> 00:44:27,323

I should emphasize though, that.

:

00:44:27,323 --> 00:44:32,009

Though the Greek gods may individually

symbolize some sort of rationality.

:

00:44:32,669 --> 00:44:36,599

If you looked at the ultimate reality

of even the Olympian, religion.

:

00:44:37,709 --> 00:44:40,319

I think you'd have to say

that irrational again.

:

00:44:40,469 --> 00:44:41,369

Anti rational.

:

00:44:42,059 --> 00:44:43,409

But what, determines everything?

:

00:44:44,009 --> 00:44:44,759

It's fate.

:

00:44:45,126 --> 00:44:46,266

It's blind faith.

:

00:44:46,866 --> 00:44:48,906

Even the gods are subject to it.

:

00:44:49,746 --> 00:44:54,619

Even the gods cannot change fate And

fade is not there for a purpose.

:

00:44:54,619 --> 00:44:59,359

There's no one directing fate towards a

reason towards a purpose towards a goal.

:

00:44:59,839 --> 00:45:04,999

It's simply is in that sense, it

is fundamentally non rational.

:

00:45:05,714 --> 00:45:08,234

so Greek, religion

seats, then to me to be.

:

00:45:08,234 --> 00:45:10,694

Uh, way to try to impose.

:

00:45:10,802 --> 00:45:11,552

Order.

:

00:45:11,626 --> 00:45:12,556

Harmony.

:

00:45:12,681 --> 00:45:13,821

and these other things.

:

00:45:14,331 --> 00:45:16,221

While at the same time at the heart of it.

:

00:45:16,365 --> 00:45:17,805

Fate is kind of.

:

00:45:17,994 --> 00:45:20,124

The same thing is that shapeless stream.

:

00:45:21,114 --> 00:45:23,664

It's maybe a more

philosophical way to put it.

:

00:45:24,744 --> 00:45:25,524

you've got this.

:

00:45:25,802 --> 00:45:26,972

Irrational.

:

00:45:26,972 --> 00:45:31,112

Non purposeful because

it's a non-personal forest.

:

00:45:31,532 --> 00:45:33,122

That directs everything.

:

00:45:33,392 --> 00:45:34,982

And that's at the heart of reality.

:

00:45:35,511 --> 00:45:37,341

And that's where Greek

philosophy is going to begin.

:

00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:38,390

Hmm.

:

00:45:39,565 --> 00:45:41,455

one other thing here about ethics.

:

00:45:41,455 --> 00:45:44,065

in Olympian, religion, you're not

going to get ethics from the gods.

:

00:45:45,385 --> 00:45:46,135

And they had their own.

:

00:45:46,465 --> 00:45:47,635

Ethical issues.

:

00:45:47,665 --> 00:45:48,115

Yeah.

:

00:45:48,145 --> 00:45:50,605

If we can impose that

kind of anachronistically.

:

00:45:51,819 --> 00:45:53,379

Zeus was a greater sitter.

:

00:45:53,409 --> 00:45:56,409

If you can use that term than the average

Greek would have been, I would guess.

:

00:45:57,557 --> 00:46:03,077

But the big emphasis here is on a

type of moderation, avoiding hubris.

:

00:46:03,647 --> 00:46:09,017

Exceeding your place, therefore, so

hubris isn't quite the same as private.

:

00:46:09,047 --> 00:46:09,767

It has the idea of.

:

00:46:09,789 --> 00:46:13,584

wanting too much and going

beyond transgressing, the

:

00:46:13,584 --> 00:46:15,054

barriers of what it means to be.

:

00:46:15,054 --> 00:46:15,684

A human.

:

00:46:16,284 --> 00:46:20,291

And then either the

gods or more fully fate.

:

00:46:20,951 --> 00:46:23,711

Will punish you to restore

the balance as it were.

:

00:46:24,431 --> 00:46:26,411

His fate kind of like karma.

:

00:46:27,248 --> 00:46:29,798

It's similar, but it's not quite the same.

:

00:46:30,238 --> 00:46:34,228

. They're both impersonal forces that

control things, but I think the mechanism.

:

00:46:34,438 --> 00:46:34,678

Okay.

:

00:46:35,308 --> 00:46:39,448

I mean, karma is probably a little

bit more of a technical term than it's

:

00:46:39,448 --> 00:46:40,978

more developed and more developed.

:

00:46:41,008 --> 00:46:45,208

And as I'm thinking about it, when

I just see memes about instant karma

:

00:46:45,208 --> 00:46:46,288

and that kind of thing, so yeah.

:

00:46:46,588 --> 00:46:46,858

Okay.,

:

00:46:47,524 --> 00:46:49,354

. So we we've been talking a lot.

:

00:46:49,354 --> 00:46:50,374

There's been a lot here.

:

00:46:50,374 --> 00:46:53,194

I'm just wondering, if you can summarize

and then we'll talk a little bit

:

00:46:53,194 --> 00:46:54,754

about where we're going over the next.

:

00:46:54,754 --> 00:46:58,150

A few episodes main thing.

:

00:46:58,326 --> 00:46:59,406

Is that we study?

:

00:46:59,513 --> 00:47:02,843

The history, especially the

history of philosophy and ideas.

:

00:47:03,683 --> 00:47:06,983

Not to remember the past, but

to understand the present.

:

00:47:07,943 --> 00:47:10,733

These ideas we don't outgrow.

:

00:47:11,033 --> 00:47:12,413

We don't put them behind us.

:

00:47:12,833 --> 00:47:15,533

They're simply buried in

the subconsciousness of.

:

00:47:15,833 --> 00:47:17,873

Humanity or at least Western humanity.

:

00:47:18,593 --> 00:47:19,613

And these ideas.

:

00:47:20,734 --> 00:47:21,844

these ideas of this.

:

00:47:21,844 --> 00:47:23,164

Non rational.

:

00:47:23,164 --> 00:47:24,574

life force.

:

00:47:24,844 --> 00:47:29,374

That just is here, that all things

are related to, but it's not directed.

:

00:47:29,914 --> 00:47:34,834

These ideas of valuing the mind

or the soul above the body.

:

00:47:35,224 --> 00:47:36,994

And having two spheres.

:

00:47:36,994 --> 00:47:39,614

As it were of body and soul within.

:

00:47:40,274 --> 00:47:43,492

Within a human and valuing soul over body.

:

00:47:44,249 --> 00:47:48,329

These things influence is still today

and they're going to influence greatly.

:

00:47:48,869 --> 00:47:51,749

The dailies and the others

philosophers are going to talk about,

:

00:47:52,049 --> 00:47:53,279

they're going to influence Plato.

:

00:47:53,879 --> 00:47:56,669

And Plato is the one who probably

more than any other person

:

00:47:56,699 --> 00:47:57,899

influenced Western thought.

:

00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:00,209

Other than the scriptures themselves.

:

00:48:00,629 --> 00:48:03,479

I think if you want to understand

Western thought, you're looking

:

00:48:03,479 --> 00:48:05,369

at primarily two streams.

:

00:48:05,399 --> 00:48:08,609

One is Greek philosophy,

especially Plato Aristotle.

:

00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:09,509

What comes out of that?

:

00:48:10,169 --> 00:48:12,119

And then the other is biblical thought.

:

00:48:12,659 --> 00:48:17,159

And how those two things mesh together

is the history of Western thinking.

:

00:48:18,339 --> 00:48:18,579

.

Wow.

:

00:48:18,609 --> 00:48:18,819

Okay.

:

00:48:18,819 --> 00:48:19,239

That's great.

:

00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:19,539

Thank you.

:

00:48:19,539 --> 00:48:20,589

So, where are we going?

:

00:48:20,739 --> 00:48:21,579

Where are we going from here?

:

00:48:21,579 --> 00:48:22,479

What's the next episode?

:

00:48:22,659 --> 00:48:22,899

All right.

:

00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:27,039

With that background, we're going to

be talking about the earliest attempts.

:

00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:29,269

of human reason to understand the world.

:

00:48:29,659 --> 00:48:31,939

Now based on the traditions aid received.

:

00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:34,329

But through using the human mind itself.

:

00:48:34,809 --> 00:48:36,009

Now we have to understand.

:

00:48:36,009 --> 00:48:38,949

They're in a sense are going

to be dependent on the things

:

00:48:38,949 --> 00:48:40,209

we've just talked about here.

:

00:48:40,809 --> 00:48:42,999

But the big step that

they're going to make, then.

:

00:48:43,112 --> 00:48:47,162

Is that they're going to try to

understand what reality consists of.

:

00:48:47,609 --> 00:48:49,679

using their human reasoning alone.

:

00:48:50,429 --> 00:48:54,239

Now, whether they understood how much

the reasoning was shaped by the culture

:

00:48:54,269 --> 00:48:58,049

they were in, or not, obviously that's

unclear to us and maybe it's going to

:

00:48:58,049 --> 00:49:03,195

vary by person, but out of that, seedbed

you have people who are going to arise.

:

00:49:03,975 --> 00:49:06,585

And they're going to say,

okay, what can we know about?

:

00:49:06,585 --> 00:49:08,505

What's ultimately real?

:

00:49:09,045 --> 00:49:11,355

So the first group of philosophers.

:

00:49:11,769 --> 00:49:14,469

Are really going to be focused

on the physical questions.

:

00:49:14,829 --> 00:49:16,809

Uh, what is the ultimate reality?

:

00:49:17,439 --> 00:49:19,809

What is that shapeless stream?

:

00:49:20,139 --> 00:49:21,189

Can we give it a name?

:

00:49:21,399 --> 00:49:23,829

What does it consist of

and how do other things.

:

00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:25,269

Come and go out of that.

:

00:49:25,689 --> 00:49:28,479

So they're going to be

focused on that idea.

:

00:49:28,929 --> 00:49:33,362

And that contrast then between the

one and how to explain the many

:

00:49:33,362 --> 00:49:35,429

based upon the one is going to be.

:

00:49:36,059 --> 00:49:39,329

Really at the heart of where we're

going or where rethought goes.

:

00:49:39,749 --> 00:49:41,129

In the next several centuries.

:

00:49:41,969 --> 00:49:42,299

Cool.

:

00:49:42,449 --> 00:49:43,859

Well, I'm looking forward to that.

:

00:49:43,859 --> 00:49:45,419

I think it will be really good already.

:

00:49:45,419 --> 00:49:47,069

This has been a great conversation.

:

00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:50,039

And packed full of a

lot of good information.

:

00:49:50,332 --> 00:49:51,652

so, so thank you so much.

:

00:49:52,132 --> 00:49:52,792

My pleasure.

:

00:49:53,332 --> 00:49:53,632

See ya.

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Philosophy and Faith
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