Episode 12

Knowing God, part 1

How can we know God?

He's not a part of this universe of time, space, with its forms of causation, movement, or even being. So how is it possible to know Him?

That is what this episode deals with.

Note: we did have some technical problems with the audio on this one, so parts of it are a bit muffled (but not too bad).

Transcript
Speaker:

Nathan, how you doing today?

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Doing well.

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Excited to kick off this new series.

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Yeah, people probably don't realize this,

we've actually had several weeks off.

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Yeah, a little bit of a break.

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You went on a nice trip.

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I did.

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I went to see some

family members out west.

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It was beautiful.

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How was that?

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Where'd you go and what

were some highlights?

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Well, I went to see some family in

Arizona and then also my daughter

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and her husband near Las Vegas and

did some hiking by myself And then

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my daughter and her husband, I went

to Death Valley Which is aptly named

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because there were very few living

things there that you could see anyway.

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Bacteria, microbes, I suppose, but

yeah, it was a very very desolate place.

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Wow, wow.

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But beautiful.

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The color of the rocks, the formations.

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The landscape was

otherworldly, but beautiful.

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Yeah, I haven't spent really

any time except for my brother's

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wedding out in, uh, California.

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I haven't spent any time out west.

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Yeah, I love it.

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It's very different than Indiana.

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Always very jealous of the, the

photos that you Showing get back.

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Well, good.

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I like to make you feel nice.

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So today we are starting a new series.

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Yeah, we are I'm excited about

this, but also feel like I don't

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have all my ducks in a row.

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So we'll see how it goes.

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That's okay That's okay.

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So the series is about knowing God Yeah,

and why did you want to talk about knowing

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God and what's your vision for the series?

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This series can really be at the

intersection of faith and philosophy,

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because the idea that we can know God,

that there is a God that we can know, is

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a very important philosophical concept.

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In fact, I would argue it's

probably the most, it has the most

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implications, if there is a God.

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But even if there is a God,

the question further down the

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road then is, can you know him?

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It certainly would be different than

knowing just another fact Furthermore,

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one of the reasons I want to talk about

this is I think both non believers as

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well as believers, religious believers,

we tend to have a deficient view of God.

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So it's easy for people who have

a very shallow, superficial idea

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of what God is to dismiss Him.

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But also for religious believers

who claim to have belief in God,

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if that belief in God is based

upon a very shallow, uninformed

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understanding of who God really is.

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It will lead to a

shallow, uninformed faith.

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I remember one of my seminary

professors saying, How we think matters.

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Sure.

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Especially how we think about God.

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And I just remember as we went on in

that course, realizing the implications.

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Oh man, yeah, how you, how you

think about God totally does matter.

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Thinking through the four great

worldviews, I see the series as very

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naturally following that because it's

like, okay, so if there is a God and

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if the theistic worldview is good and

valuable and worth embracing, what next?

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Can we know God?

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Yes and no.

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I like part of that answer.

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I would say, yes, we can know, but

we have to understand that knowing

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God is not like knowing other things

that we may have knowledge of.

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How so?

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We tend to think of God as part of

the furniture of this universe, we

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feel like, okay, we're going to apply

the same methods of knowing, same

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epistemological method, to knowing

God as we would know, for example,

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the moon, or Jupiter, or the bottom

of the ocean, or some historical fact.

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When you begin to think about the

claim that the scriptures make, you

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realize that you have a problem in

understanding the knowledge of God.

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God is not an object god cannot

be an object of knowledge in

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the same way objects of this

universe are objects of knowledge.

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So, when

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we talk about knowing God, we're using

that word knowing in an analogous

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way to knowing the things about this

universe, but it's only analogous.

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It's not quite the same, because

when you talk about knowing God,

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you're actually speaking about having

knowledge of something that exists

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on the other side of the creator.

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So, if Christianity is true, or Islam,

or Judaism, matter, fundamentally, there

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is one divide, and that divide is between

the Creator God and all that He makes.

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So the things that He makes would include

this entire physical universe, as well

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as spiritual beings, angels, demons,

whatever else you might want to call them.

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All these things exist on this

side of that great divide.

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Angels, clouds, Venus.

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History, the bottom of the ocean,

Antarctica, the people within this world,

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all of us exist within this side divide.

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On the other side is God.

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God is fundamentally different

than the things of this world.

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So the things of this world are

all going to have this in common,

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that they are created by this God.

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And we have a similarity in

knowing how to know about them.

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We have a similarity in

how we know these things.

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But God is fundamentally different.

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So the things we experience in

this world, for example, they

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all partake, of space and time.

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the things we experience, like

you, I see you as a person, you

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have a physical dimension to you.

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You have a location within space as well.

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You have a location within time.

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All these things are not true about God.

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He's fundamentally different.

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What's also true about you is that

the laws of this universe, the laws

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of cause and effect, the laws of

chemistry, the laws apply to you.

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You are bound by them and to some

degree, at least, they control you.

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All those things are not true

of God because he made them.

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He's not bound by them.

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He made time and space.

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The normal ways that we know people

are by using our rationality,

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including the laws of logic.

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And yet, I think we cannot apply

those in the same way to God.

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Now that doesn't mean That he's an

irrational being, the laws of logic

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don't apply to him in any sense.

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But rather he is the one who

produces those laws, they're the

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product of his rational mind.

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He is not underneath.

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And I think it's a very good

question to ask, can God do things

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To us at least seem illogical.

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Can God break what we would interpret

as the laws of logic, just as we

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presume that he could also break the

laws of physics when he does miracles?

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My point is.

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Not that God is irrational, but

that he is beyond human rationality,

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because he's the one who created it.

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So, when we're talking about knowing

God, we don't know him in the same

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way as the other things in this

universe that are within this spatial

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temporal complex, as it were, that are

fundamentally similar to us in the fact

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that they're Bound by the laws of physics

and the laws of logic and rationality.

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God is wholly different because

he is the one who brought

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all these things into being.

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I find it very difficult to

get this across, but that's

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what I'm trying to get at.

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Yeah, I think that will take

some time to let soak in.

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Because it's hard to think about

that fundamental distinction because

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we live our lives considering other

created beings and other things.

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So, everything that we experience is

limited by the laws of physics, and logic,

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time, and space, and all those things.

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Yes.

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Let me give you one example.

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one of the great disputes within

Christendom, the Christian worldview,

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is this whole idea of how can humans

have free will if God knows everything?

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Part of the reason I think we're stuck

on this is because the way our minds work

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understand that causality works one way.

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that is causality in terms

of time works one way.

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One thing has to exist before

another thing to cause it.

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But if God is a temporal, so not just

eternal in the sense that he's always

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been there, but exists outside of time

itself, and outside the sequentiality

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of time we experience, then there's

no reason to think that for him

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causation has to Work that one way

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so him knowing things Doesn't necessarily

mean that we don't have free will.

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Exactly.

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So it's not an either or.

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Exactly.

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So you just solve that, that problem.

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Well, some people would just say I punted

it, But yeah, I think when you devise

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a system that is strongly based upon

the idea of certain ideas that God is

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sovereign over everything to the point

where you denigrate free will and human

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causation to any degree, that perhaps

part of the issue is that we're simply

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not in an epistemological position.

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We're not in the right position

to understand causality fully.

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Yeah, and just to bring it

back to the beginning, that

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will affect Christian practice.

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It will.

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I mean, if you think that God knows

everything and God is predestining

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everything Then that will certainly

shape the way that we pray.

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Because maybe we don't need to evangelize

because if they're going to get saved,

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they're going to get saved anyway.

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that how we think really

does matter, right?

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So I imagine we'll get into God's temporal

nature perhaps and these kinds of things

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and Later, but since we're just kind of

introducing that we don't yeah, I can't

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wait to do that In fact, my master's

thesis was on the relationship between

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God and time . Yeah, we could really get

in the weeds on that one if you want.

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Yeah, I'd love to.

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Maybe I'll read that and we can

have a whole discussion on it.

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Oh yeah, it's fascinating,

everything you're reading.

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I'm sure.

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It's a page turner.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Um, gets back to that question though

of like differences between deism.

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Deism, perhaps.

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If God is our temporal, can he interact?

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Can he make a difference if we

just wind it up and let it go?

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Okay, so it seems like philosophy is

maybe one tool in our toolbox of how

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we can Begin to think about the nature

of God and begin to understand how we

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can begin knowing God but I wonder if

there are other tools in our toolbox

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we can't know all about God.

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There's a fundamental difference between

creation and creator, but there are

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certain things about God that we can know.

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So how can we, how can we know God?

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Yeah, you asked about whether

philosophy can help in this or

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not, and obviously I think it can.

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That's good.

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Yeah, otherwise Glad you conceded

that up front, because our

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listeners might be confused.

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Right, and we'd be wasting

our time and theirs, right?

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Philosophy, I think, can be a great

help because it teaches us how to

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think about the right issues in the

right way, and in particular to ask

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questions that go deeper, second

order questions you might call.

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And by doing that, it forces

us to ask and answer questions.

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Sometimes those questions

can lead us to admit that we

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don't really know the answer.

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And that's a good thing to know as well.

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Philosophy can be a great help It

could also be a straitjacket.

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And what I mean by that is I

believe you don't know God primarily

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through the rational means or

philosophical methods by itself.

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What do you mean?

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I believe that to know God, at

least in the experience of myself

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and many other people through the

ages, to know God in this way goes

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beyond what you can do in philosophy.

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Goes beyond what we normally

think of rational analysis.

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Let me see if I can

explain what I mean here.

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When we know things in this world, most of

the time we're operating as an observer.

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So I'm watching some scene, and

maybe it's unfolding in the park.

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or a football stadium that I'm watching,

and I am an observer of what happens.

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So if I'm at a football game or

I'm at a basketball arena and I'm

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watching this, I have the knowledge,

true knowledge of what's happening.

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I understand the play, after it occurs

at least, I understand what happens,

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I understand why they get points or

why they didn't get points right.

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So I have an observational

knowledge of that.

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And really if you expand that, that's

primarily how we interact with the world.

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Or kind of limited to that.

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Because of our senses.

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We are.

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Again, if I know a fact about history,

what I'm doing is I am observing

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what has been taught about that.

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I'm kind of choosing to fit that

into my knowledge puzzle somewhere.

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Or if I learn a fact about to the moons

of Saturn, I am observing knowledge

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that's outside of me, trying to put

that into my mind and what I think

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about things, how I interpret the world.

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That is an observational

type of knowledge.

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it's an objective type of knowledge,

or at least it claims to be.

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But there is also another kind of

knowledge that doesn't eliminate that,

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but goes a step beyond You might

call it the knowledge of the agent.

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So an agent is not someone who is

watching the football game, they're

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actually someone on the field doing

the football game, making the results.

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Now to extend that analogy to human

life, I believe that there is a way of

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interacting with this world that's not

just observing, but is actually an agent

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within this world, and that part of what

you do in that is actually Knowledge,

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I'm not saying that very well, that

when you interact with things of this

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world, you don't have to do so just

as an observer, but also as an agent.

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And as an agent, you don't simply observe

things, you choose things, you do things.

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And I believe that if our knowledge

of God is simply, we're thinking

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of that as an observer, then what

we're thinking of rationally is a

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set of ideas about a person or a

thing or a concept that we call God.

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But going beyond that, there

is also a type of knowledge

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that only comes as an agent,

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there's not perfect analogy to this.

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But I can think of my

own wife, for example.

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There was a time when I knew

her only observationally, right?

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There was a time where I knew her

as, okay, this is her name, this is

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what she looks like, this is what

year and how old she is, right?

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I know certain facts And yet, there

comes to be a time where I also Not

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only know that she is my wife, but

she is my wife because of my choice.

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There is a knowledge that comes

about that's true about her, but

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only because of the choices I have

chosen to make in regards to her.

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That's closer to what

I'm trying to get at.

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And not just myself, but Kant and

Kierkegaard talked about this idea a lot.

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That this aging type of knowledge,

you could call it a subjective type of

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knowledge, or an existential kind of.

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Subjective here doesn't mean arbitrary,

like your, you know, teacher is subjective

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if they favor one student over another.

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But the idea that I am a subject who

is, Making this claim to knowledge.

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I'm not just an observer.

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I am a subject.

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And I have to understand,

talking about God.

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It's not enough to have just an objective,

observer type of knowledge, because

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you're talking about the issue of faith.

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Yeah, it makes me think of Martin

Buber's two different kinds of

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relationships, like an I It relationship,

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where there's a subject and an

object, versus an I Thou relationship,

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where there's two subjects,

and Relationships with people

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should be I thou relationships.

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It's not just, about knowing about

somebody, but actually knowing somebody.

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Actually, I think that's very

apropos, and I'm glad that

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you've read him a little bit.

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yeah, I think it's very

much along the same lines.

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I think, another thought I

had is, have some experience

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overseas and, learn Spanish.

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In Spanish, there's two different

words for know, two different verbs.

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One is saber, which basically

means to know about.

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And the other one is conocer,

which is to know somebody.

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So, I know about.

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President Biden.

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But I know you.

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And , it's a huge difference.

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It's a huge difference knowing somebody

than just knowing about somebody.

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Some people I've heard, maybe it's

Augustine or Saint Anselm, talked about

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faith seeking understanding and how in

order to have this I Thou relationship

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and to know somebody or know God

instead of just knowing about God,

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you kind of have to begin with faith.

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Do you think that that's true, that

you can't really begin to know a god

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that you don't believe in, or do you

think that it go the other way around?

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Yeah, the question in Christian

philosophy and theology has been, do

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we believe in order to understand, or

do we understand in order to believe?

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Yeah.

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And obviously That's a

good way of putting it.

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So I believe both of those are true.

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I believe that

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when I say I understand in order to

believe that that is a true statement,

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that I don't believe simply without

understanding, without a rational.

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capacity for choosing one as

intellectually more valuable and

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coherent than the other choice.

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So I don't choose apart

from my reasoning ability.

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But at the same time, I

think the other is true.

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And the other, I think, probably is the

one that most people don't develop enough,

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that I understand because I believe.

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So when I come to a certain place, My

understanding can give me the ability

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to discern what are the options and

why one might be better than the other.

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But at the same time, really

understanding God and his ways comes

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only after you make that choice.

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So, First, I believe we do choose

to believe because we understand

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something, but the fullness of our

understanding comes after we believe.

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So that's really good because no

matter where the starting place

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is, this discussion about know

God or God's attributes or that

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kind of thing can be helpful.

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Because if you are already coming from

a perspective where you believe and

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this can help you learn more about.

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God bless you.

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God, which can shape your affections

and your posture toward them and your

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passions and all that kind of thing.

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Just like once you started a relationship

with your wife, you got to know more

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about her, which led you to love her

more because there was more that you knew

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about her and more that you could love.

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Exactly.

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But then from the other perspective,

if somebody listening has not started

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believing in, God, then This can

still help them get to know more

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Okay, so we talked a little bit

ago about philosophy and how we can

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get to know God through philosophy.

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I wonder if there are other

tools in the toolbox, so to

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speak, that can help us know God.

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Sure.

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let me list out a few ways I

think that we can know God.

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And these are going to be complementary,

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and the first way that I think we

can know God is through the natural

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world So scriptures talk about the

heavens declaring the glory of God.

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And the heavens?

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Uh huh.

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Meaning like heaven?

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No, the skies.

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The skies, okay.

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The skies declare the glory of God?

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Uh huh.

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And then in Romans chapter

1, Paul talks about

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all people should be able

to see that there is a God

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because of what he has done.

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So, he says there is some sort of

knowledge we can have about God

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simply by observing what He has made.

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the idea being that we look at the,

the cosmos, and then we draw the

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conclusion that it's more logical

to believe that there is a being

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who created that, and then think

about how powerful that being is.

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So,

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I should make a distinction here

between the cosmos as being a sign

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and the cosmos as being a proof.

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I believe Paul was talking

about it being a sign.

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That when you look at this physical

world, or in this physical universe that

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we are in, it could point us towards

the fact that there is someone who

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created this and brought this about.

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That's different than, a proof.

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A sign can be something that says, look

towards that instead of just this, where

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the proof is, okay, because there is

this, therefore there has to be this.

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And so the cosmological proofs of

God are a different issue than a

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cosmological sign pointing towards

God, at least for our discussion here.

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So one way we see the incredible world,

and if we choose to at least, we can

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interpret this not only as being beautiful

and wondrous and mystical and powerful in

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itself, but also as pointing towards God.

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The wonder, the mystery, the

power of the one who created it.

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Yeah, so that verse that you're talking

about is Romans 1 20 says, Since the

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creation of the world, God's invisible

qualities, his eternal power and

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divine nature, have been clearly seen.

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that makes sense to me that, I mean,

if you think about an artist who

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creates a work of art, say a painting,,

you can see a little bit, I mean it

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takes some, some deciphering and some

thought to think through maybe what

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they're thinking or what's going on

in their mind or their heart, what

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their value, that kind of thing.

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Right.

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So it would make sense that we could

look around at creation and see color

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and order and see beauty and see,

you know, some of these things that

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might begin to hint at the nature.

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So I think it's a legitimate

type of knowledge.

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So theologians, philosophers

would call that a natural

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theology or a natural revelation.

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Natural theology would be building,

ideas about God based upon that natural

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revelation just means that God reveals

himself through the natural world.

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There are some theologians who rejected

that, especially Karl Barth, but for

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:

the most part I think that's pretty non

controversial, that there is at least a

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:

sign that nature is pointing towards God

and we can have some knowledge of God.

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:

Now is that knowledge

sufficient in itself?

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No, because it doesn't show you anything

about necessarily the heart of God,

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:

it might show you power, something

about his appreciation of beauty and

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:

mystery, but it doesn't show you.

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:

Much beyond that, perhaps.

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:

That's general revelation, but

more specific revelation would

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:

be through the scriptures.

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:

So that would be the second way

that we can know God, is what he

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:

reveals in the scriptures, primarily

in For us, at least, what we would

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:

call the Old and New Testament.

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:

Um, and they tell us

about this particular god.

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:

They tell us about his interaction

with human history, or at least

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:

some people within human history.

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:

They tell us about his goal, tell us

about his attributes and his nature,

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:

what he is like, what he likes and

what he doesn't like, what he values

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:

and what he doesn't, especially in

terms of human choices and stuff.

402

:

So, that is the second type of

knowledge, is the scripture.

403

:

Yeah, I like that.

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:

I think that that's tough because

scripture is, so much of it

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:

is written in narrative form.

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:

It is.

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:

So it's not like there's a book,

like first and second attributes.

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:

First and second attributes, I like that.

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:

It'd be a good one.

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:

Yeah, these are God's attributes.

411

:

But yeah, I think you certainly see that,

the narrative arc of God's redemption

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:

is good and he is drawing people

into relationship with himself, his

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:

attributes like hospitality and grace.

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:

I mean, you certainly see that, and

I, I imagine that that will be part

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:

of moving forward as we get into

some of these specific attributes.

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:

Scripture will be one of the ways in

which we understand God's character.

417

:

Right.

418

:

Yes, and then the third one, it's

going to be less clear, but I

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:

believe that we know God, at least as

Christians, through the incarnation.

420

:

What's that?

421

:

That's a big word.

422

:

Right.

423

:

You know what it is.

424

:

But yeah, I'm glad you're

explaining it for everyone

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:

because some people might not.

426

:

Incarnate means to make something

physical that wasn't physical, basically.

427

:

Incarnate means That God himself,

walked into this space time matrix,

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:

walked into this physical universe in

the form of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

429

:

So that's what we are claiming.

430

:

And that through that, then, he lived a

perfect life, he taught us about the true

431

:

God, and then he died a vicarious death.

432

:

Vicarious means that he

died for somebody else.

433

:

Not because of his own

sins or, what he deserved,

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:

,

so the reason I want to bring that out is because to me, in one

435

:

sense, it's part of our scriptural

knowledge, so it's part of the special

436

:

revelation that is the scriptures.

437

:

But at the same time, it is a piece

of knowledge that if you believe

438

:

that, if you believe that God in love

incarnated the Trinity in the form

439

:

of Jesus Christ, and that he died so

that we could be reconciled to God.

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:

That changes everything else

you read in the scriptures

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:

as well as really in nature.

442

:

So to me it's a it's a special

kind of knowledge because it forces

443

:

a reinterpretation of the other.

444

:

Yeah, that's one thing that's

pretty unique to Christianity.

445

:

Yeah, it is.

446

:

You're not going to find

that in Judaism or Islam.

447

:

No, and I think our Jewish friends

probably Get very frustrated with us,

448

:

how we interpret certain Old Testament

passages or Hebrew Bible passages.

449

:

Well, because we view it

through a Christological lens.

450

:

Yes.

451

:

I'll just bring up, a couple, sections

of scripture that I think about.

452

:

of course, John 1, where it talks about

The Lagos, or the first principle, the

453

:

word becoming flesh, and that being Jesus.

454

:

And there's Colossians 1, 15,

which says that the Son, or Jesus,

455

:

is the image, the invisible God.

456

:

The firstborn over all creation

for in him all things were created.

457

:

When we look at Jesus, we see God.

458

:

And then I really like Hebrews as well.

459

:

One, can you go ahead and

read the rest of that?

460

:

Yes, Colossians 1 15 through 20.

461

:

Here is Colossians 1 I'll just read 15

through 20 says the Sun talking about

462

:

Jesus is the image of the invisible God

The firstborn over all creation, for

463

:

in him all things were created, things

in heaven and on earth, visible and

464

:

invisible, whether thrones or powers or

rulers or authorities, all things have

465

:

been created through him and forth.

466

:

He is before all things and in

him all things hold together.

467

:

He is the head of the body, the

church, he is the beginning and

468

:

the firstborn from among the dead,

resurrection there, so that in

469

:

everything he might have the supremacy.

470

:

For God was pleased to have his

fullness dwell in him, and through him

471

:

to reconcile to himself all things,

whether things on earth or things in

472

:

heaven, by making peace with bloodshed.

473

:

Now, if you believe that, that

changes your philosophy about nature.

474

:

Say more there.

475

:

Well, because nature has a point then.

476

:

This physical universe that

we're in didn't just happen.

477

:

it's not the result of, chance.

478

:

It's not the result of necessity.

479

:

It has a goal and a purpose somehow

wrapped up into being this arena.

480

:

in which God brings all things into

fruition and fullness under Jesus

481

:

Christ, including reconciling us to

Him, and that we have a share in that.

482

:

So there is a purpose, there is a goal

for which all things were created.

483

:

And if you believe that, Then you

have a fundamentally different

484

:

understanding about the universe

because you understand the reason.

485

:

All things were created by him,

which by the way, is so fascinating

486

:

because in the beginning God created

the heavens and the earth, right?

487

:

And that new Testament passage is saying

that the sun was Also creating, so

488

:

Jesus is God who created creation, but

also created through him and for him.

489

:

So that purpose, yeah.

490

:

So there's another passage here, it's

a little bit shorter, in Hebrews 1

491

:

It says that the sun is the radiance

of God's glory, and the exact

492

:

representation is yin, sustaining

all things by his powerful word.

493

:

That's so neat.

494

:

When you look to Jesus, you see God.

495

:

Gets to the doctrine of the Trinity,

which we'll get into as well.

496

:

But to me, it's, I love what you

say, that we can understand God by

497

:

looking to the Incarnation, because

in Christian theology, God never

498

:

acts in a way that isn't Christ like.

499

:

God never acts apart from His purposes.

500

:

So understanding that,

that means everything.

501

:

Yeah, so, to sum up so far, I

believe there is a legitimate

502

:

knowledge we can have about God,

at least His power and existence.

503

:

It's at least being a rational belief

based upon the world around it.

504

:

We have the scriptures that we

also believe give more specific

505

:

testimony to who God is.

506

:

And then we interpret both those

things, especially by the incarnation

507

:

and cross of Jesus Christ.

508

:

Those are, in a sense, objective

in that you and I can share them.

509

:

So they're objective in the

sense that they're not something

510

:

that's distinct to me as opposed

to you at different subjects.

511

:

Sure.

512

:

Those can be facts that we

can just kind of adhere to.

513

:

Right.

514

:

And people can disagree

about the facts, obviously.

515

:

Many do.

516

:

Right.

517

:

But they are facts outside

of us, necessarily.

518

:

But they can be treated

as an I It relationship.

519

:

It's sometimes, yeah.

520

:

But I also believe that

there is a knowing that is.

521

:

There is an agent type of knowing

when it comes to knowing God.

522

:

I believe that each person, within

their own journey, especially if they're

523

:

seeking, can have a knowledge of God

that is valid for themselves, decision

524

:

making, for what they value, what they

choose to do with their life, based upon

525

:

their own experience of God, whether

it's some dramatic answer to a prayer,

526

:

whether it's some help God has given,

some insight that He's brought through

527

:

His Word or through other things.

528

:

Or maybe something beyond that.

529

:

There is a way in which I know about

God because of an interaction, and that

530

:

interaction is going to be very personal,

so it's going to be very subjective.

531

:

It's going to be something that I choose

to understand in a certain way, but to

532

:

me that is a type of knowledge, it's a

subjective type of knowledge, it's not

533

:

a knowledge that you can necessarily

evaluate or judge, because I could

534

:

never really explain it to you fully.

535

:

But for me, as a subject, as a person, to

me, that is a very real type of knowledge.

536

:

No, I think that there's a natural analogy

here, thinking about human relationships.

537

:

I mean, I have a friendship with you,

I have a friendship with your wife.

538

:

So I know your wife to some

degree, but not like you know her.

539

:

Your relationship with her is much more

personal, by nature of being married.

540

:

You're talking about a knowing that

goes beyond just knowing facts to

541

:

actually Having some sort of personal,

subjective experience with it.

542

:

Yes.

543

:

And that subjective experience then

actually is a form of knowledge as well.

544

:

So that's not to be, it's

not to be discredited.

545

:

No.

546

:

I'm with you.

547

:

I think that's a lot of what it's about.

548

:

I don't think if someone's evaluating

it for their own selves, probably my

549

:

experience doesn't necessarily count

too much in their own evaluation

550

:

of, that, but it does for me.

551

:

I think that it can.

552

:

I mean, I think that, in a past episode,

in the Faith and Doubt episode, we

553

:

talked about sometimes When you maybe

don't sense God's presence or you're

554

:

doubting, you can still, I think you

said, stand on the backs of giants.

555

:

Or borrow your faith.

556

:

Borrow your faith.

557

:

That sort of concept of within

community, even when my personal

558

:

experience is lacking or something,

you can still see the faith of others.

559

:

And that can be meaningful.

560

:

I think we can have legitimate

knowledge about God in these ways.

561

:

But at the same time, at the

same time, we're talking about

562

:

knowing in a different sense.

563

:

So, I want to come back to this idea that

the goal is not to know God as an object

564

:

of knowledge like we know other things.

565

:

No.

566

:

The goal is not to know God like we

know historical fact, like we know a

567

:

scientific theory, like we know some

part of this universe, like I might know

568

:

the city of Franklin that we live in.

569

:

I believe.

570

:

That we need to internalize this

as an existential choice of who

571

:

I am, what I view life is about.

572

:

It has to be the knowledge, not only of

the observer, I have to choose, if I

573

:

believe this, to let this change my life,

574

:

so, that's what I'm trying to get at.

575

:

I think it's good, it's helpful

to talk about knowing God.

576

:

So in coming episodes, we'll talk about,

knowing God, especially in some terms and

577

:

some categories that will be very familiar

to philosophy, infinity and whatnot.

578

:

And I think those are going to

be very helpful, at least they've

579

:

been very helpful to me in the,

in my own spiritual journey.

580

:

But the goal is not to know facts

about God, but to use those as a

581

:

way to actually know this God in

an existential relational way.

582

:

Well, that'll be, that'll be really good.

583

:

I'm, I'm really excited for this.

584

:

I think that this is a perfect

discussion that's kind of at the

585

:

intersection of philosophy and faith.

586

:

Because like you said, some attributes

will be very familiar to philosophy

587

:

and then some of it will Dip into

theology but all for the purpose of

588

:

knowing and loving Right exactly.

589

:

All right.

590

:

I think that's all I have unless

you have any more questions.

591

:

That's good.

592

:

Sounds good.

593

:

Thanks so much All right.

594

:

See you next time

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