Episode 33
Plato: Life and Influence (the History of Philosophy, part 12)
Plato's Influence on Western Thought and Christian Theology
In this episode, Nathan and Daniel dive into the life and legacy of Plato, one of history’s most influential philosophers. They discuss why Plato's ideas have had a profound impact on Western thought and Christian theology, outline the structure of upcoming episodes, and explain concepts like Platonism, Middle Platonism, and Neoplatonism. Additionally, they touch on the intertwining of Greek philosophy with early Christian thought and the role of Plato's Academy in shaping intellectual history. The episode sets the stage for a deeper exploration of Plato’s philosophies and their enduring influence.
00:00 Introduction and Catching Up
00:15 Introducing Plato
01:54 Plato's Influence and Importance
03:48 Plato's Systematization of Philosophy
11:46 Plato's Life and Background
13:00 Plato's Academy and Works
17:11 Platonism and Its Evolution
18:42 Neoplatonism and Its Impact
23:25 Conclusion and Teasers for Next Episode
Transcript
All right.
2
:We're back.
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:Hey, Daniel.
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:Good afternoon, Nathan.
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:Glad to see you again.
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:Yeah.
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:Excited to record some podcasts before
I head out on paternity leave here.
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:Right.
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:Hopefully get a couple in
the bank for editing Yeah.
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:So this will be good.
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:And we have finally made
it to drum roll, please.
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:Plato.
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:It's been a long time coming.
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:That's right.
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:The Plato.
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:The Plato.
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:Not Plato.
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:No, I was telling Nate previously,
I could tell I don't announce yet my
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:words very clearly because when the
transcript comes through, the written
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:transcript of all the, of the audio,
Um, the AI always puts it as Play Doh,
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:like the child's play thing there.
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:But no, not that kind of.
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:So not Play Doh.
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:No, Play Doh.
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:Unfortunately.
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:Yeah, that would be fun to talk about,
the philosophical meanings of Play Doh.
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:Yeah, the malleability of material, so.
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:See you're already halfway there.
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:Hey, that's that's that's my gift
Maybe we'll come back to that because
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:we could use that as illustrating
some aspect of plato's thought nice.
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:Yeah, so, What are these next
few episodes going to be?
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:All right So i've only got this
one and the next one sketched out
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:I haven't really written the script
for either one, so Well, we might
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:go back and forth a little bit.
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:But today we're going to talk about the
influence of plato And then we're going
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:to talk about his life and then his works.
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:So that's the episode today.
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:Kind of the background so we know the guy,
what he's talking about, what he's doing.
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:And then next week we're going to
have a little bit longer episode
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:about the big idea of Plato, the one
that has influenced Western thought.
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:More than any other philosophical
idea in my opinion at least.
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:Very nice.
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:So that's a little bit of a cliffhanger.
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:Yeah, I'm giving a little tease there.
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:I like it.
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:I like it.
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:So Plato.
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:So Plato's a disciple of Socrates.
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:Yes, and He is in Athens.
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:Yes.
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:He is in Athens.
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:Actually, let's back up.
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:Before we talk about his life, let's
just talk about why he's so important,
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:why we're talking about him so much.
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:Okay.
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:We're going to devote three to
four, maybe even five episodes.
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:Let's, let's explain why.
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:So, he is, in my opinion, the most
influential philosopher of them all.
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:Maybe rivaled only by
Aristotle, his pupil.
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:Okay, so that's a, that's a big statement.
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:It is, and not everyone's
going to agree with that.
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:I, from what I've seen, a lot of people
agree, at least influential in the West.
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:Seems like that's pretty I should
clarify, that's what I mean, yeah.
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:Yeah, I mean, that's not that
contentious of a, Well, maybe.
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:Probably some people would argue against
it, but when you look at European and
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:American, Canadian history, Australian,
all the thought that's within that
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:culture, I think Plato influences
more than any other philosopher.
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:And maybe any other
person outside of Jesus.
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:So can you I don't know if I
could defend that but maybe.
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:Okay.
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:Can you share a few of the reasons why
you think he's so influential and how
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:he's shaped our culture or society?
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:Yeah, let me read a quote
by Alfred North Whitehead.
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:He was an American philosopher and
mathematician and he has a famous
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:quote that people, that philosophers
argue about whether it's hyperbole
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:or accurate, but he said this.
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:The safest general characterization
of the European philosophical
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:tradition is that it consists of
a series of footnotes to Plato.
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:I do not mean the systematic scheme
of thought which scholars have
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:doubtfully extracted from his, writings.
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:I allude to the wealth of general
ideas scattered through them.
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:Now, there are so many ideas, but
in particular, the ones we're going
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:to look at next week, I think are
going to really change the history of
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:philosophy, the history of thought.
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:and a part of this is involved
with this idea that he is really
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:the first great systematizer.
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:Systematizer?
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:Yeah.
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:Okay, what does that mean?
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:All right.
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:So he is, the first one to really
bring together all the different
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:thinkers and all their different themes
from the past in Greece and, bring
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:together all the different thinkers
and all the different thoughts.
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:from the previous philosophers
and then put them together.
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:So he's synthesizing them, but he's
also expanding the breadth of that.
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:So some of the others, most of
them talked about metaphysics
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:and they're trying to figure out,
okay, what is reality consist of?
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:A few of them talked about knowledge,
theory of knowledge, but not very deeply.
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:And then a very few, uh, the Stoics and a
couple of the others talked about ethics.
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:The Stoics, for them it was an ethics
more of personal self advancement.
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:Plato is the first to build a system
where all those areas, those three big
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:areas of metaphysics, what is real, or
ontology, epistemology, what is true
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:and how can we know it, and then ethics,
what should we value, what should we
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:do, what should we choose, those three
big areas are all brought together.
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:He's teaching on all three.
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:And he integrates them.
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:So the epistemology is dependent
and tied into the metaphysics
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:and the ethics as well.
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:So he's the first one.
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:Aristotle, you could argue,
does much of the same thing.
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:Kant certainly does that
much later on, the German
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:philosopher in the 18th century.
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:But Plato is the first one, and arguably
the one who does it most successfully,
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:in the sense of having a coherent system.
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:Yeah.
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:So, I mean, you open a, introductory
philosophy textbook and it's going
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:to organize kind of similarly,
right, around your metaphysics,
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:your epistemology, your ethics.
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:And, and so, more modern philosophers
will maybe take one of those
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:categories and specialize in them,
or maybe even a subcategory of those
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:categories and specialize in them.
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:Is that right?
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:But he's like foundational because.
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:He and Aristotle and then Immanuel Kant
and others have kind of laid groundwork
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:for an entire system of philosophy.
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:Am I thinking about that correctly?
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:Okay.
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:So he, is the first great systematizer
and he's still one of the most prominent.
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:Okay.
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:So if you look at systematizers in the
history of philosophy, I think you would
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:say Plato, Aristotle, Thomas, Spinoza.
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:Thomas Aquinas.
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:Yeah, Thomas Aquinas.
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:Okay.
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:Spinoza, although his wasn't
quite, to me, as successful.
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:Other people might differ.
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:And then, uh, Kant.
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:But, I mean, there's a sixteen
hundred year gap between Right.
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:Aquinas and Aristotle.
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:so there wasn't much medieval
Well, almost that much, yeah.
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:Medieval, uh, significant
medieval philosophers?
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:Well, there were, but
they were mainly English.
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:building their ideas either
on Plato or Aristotle.
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:Okay, gotcha.
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:Yeah, so Augustine was an
original thinker, but he's still
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:within the Platonist tradition.
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:I see, I see.
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:Obviously, there were many other original
thinkers, not as influential as Augustine,
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:but they're still within those traditions.
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:Okay, I gotcha.
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:So those guys are most influential
because they're, they have kind of
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:unique foundational perspectives.
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:Yes.
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:So Plato's going to be
uniquely different from Kant.
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:Yes.
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:And Thomas is going to be
different from Spinoza.
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:Right.
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:Okay.
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:Now Thomas is going to rely on Aristotle
as well, but he also expands it and
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:Christianizing it so much that it's
fair to talk about him separately.
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:Okay.
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:Wow.
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:Okay.
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:So we're, I mean, these are big,
broad, sweeping categories and
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:there's, it makes sense why we're
going to spend so much time on Plato.
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:Yes.
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:And the other reason is that, we,
we talked about this a little bit
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:last time, You can argue, and I
think pretty successfully, that
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:Christian theology, which develops
in the 2nd and 3rd century A.
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:D., is really a combination of
Biblical revelation and Greek, and
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:particularly, Platonic thought.
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:because of that, Plato has a profound
influence on Christian theology,
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:and even how Christians who aren't
theologians think about things.
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:In particular, the soul, and the
afterlife, and the body, and,
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:um, and so many other things.
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:Plato is foundational to
Christian, Christian theology.
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:Am I thinking about this correctly?
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:A lot of that is these,
Hellenized, or even Greek, people.
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:who hear the message of Christianity,
the message of Jesus, and have to
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:synthesize that message with what
they're already thinking about, and
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:try to fit it into the categories.
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:I mean, of course, there's going to
be differences, and it's going to
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:challenge that, but a lot of that is
just kind of natural, that they're
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:trying to fit into their preconceived
categories of how, how life works.
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:Yes.
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:So kind of two things, and
you're on to one of them.
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:As the church becomes less Jewish and
more Gentile, It's going to be bringing
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:in people who have been brought up
in the Greco Roman way of thought.
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:And really, Rome adopts more than
replaces the Greek ideals of culture and
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:philosophy, So, it's going to be coming
to people who are already shaped by that.
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:But secondly, once the church begins to
get established and they interact with
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:other worldviews, they want to be able to,
as much as possible, show the intellectual
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:respectability of Christianity.
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:And the way they're gonna do that is
say, look, it fits in with what we
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:all believe about the big issues of
life, about these philosophical issues.
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:So there, it's like, uh, It's
like Paul at Mars Hill, right?
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:I mean, you guys are, you guys are close.
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:Yeah, that's a pretty good example.
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:But here's, but let me, let me
tell you about this God that
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:you say is the unnamed God.
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:I know who that is.
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:Right.
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:So he kind of honors them in that they
have some sort of spiritual impulse,
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:but he takes them beyond their thinking
in order to show how Jesus and, you
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:know, Christianity flows from the
Jewish thought and that kind of thing.
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:Yeah, exactly.
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:Okay.
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:So some of the very earliest churches.
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:church fathers and church theologians felt
like God must have been working through
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:Plato and the other Greek philosophers
Because they got so much right.
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:It's so much that fits in beautifully
with how they understood the message of
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:the Bible That is an interesting idea.
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:Yeah.
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:No others like Others would get
others would question that point.
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:Yes what does Athens have to do with
Jerusalem, you know, that's, that's
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:an interesting thought experiment
for all the listeners to see maybe
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:the Holy Spirit can work outside
of the scriptures or the church.
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:Sure, yeah, and that's one thing
I've kind of wrestled with my
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:own, I've come to realize what I'm
just talking about, that Christian
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:theology is shaped by Greek thought.
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:And the question I wrestled in with
is, okay, how much of that is a good
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:thing or even a God given thing?
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:And how much of that is really
a perversion of biblical thought
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:and the biblical worldview.
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:And I could see, you
could argue it either way.
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:Um, depending on, you know,
how you interpret things, but
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:certainly God could do that.
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:That's certainly within his providence.
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:Or it could be a wrong turn that
we we need to make a U turn on.
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:Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
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:it certainly seems true that the
Greek thought, may be paved the
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:way for Christianity to have some
connection points in their culture.
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:But yeah, whether or not that's a good
thing or it's something that we need to
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:Reject is an interesting question as well.
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:Okay, so Plato Plato should
we jump back to Plato?
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:Yeah, let's jump back after that long
digression But I mean, that's the heart
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:of the podcast here is understanding
how these things intersect and how
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:they intersected back then because they
certainly it's the Same thing today, you
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:know Christianity and culture still right?
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:There's still that ongoing
conversation going on.
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:Yeah
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:so tell us about his life a little bit.
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:What do we know about his?
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:biography Well, there were a lot of
legends that grew after this, and so
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:we have to disentangle some of these,
but the bare facts that we know.
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:he was born in 425, possibly 426.
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:He was an Athenian, and he came apparently
from a wealthy, aristocratic family.
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:Uh, his real Aristarchalese.
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:Really?
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:Yeah.
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:I'm not sure I'm saying that right.
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:Aristarchals.
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:Starklace.
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:Yeah, I'm one of those.
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:Yeah, I mean I've got a lot of questions
about that, but I'm sure you don't know.
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:No, I don't.
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:But that was what one
writer said about him.
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:It's not clear, but it is clear that
his name is very close to the Greek
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:word Platon, which means broad.
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:So a lot of people have speculated that
it's a nickname for that he acquired
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:either because he was broad and
burly, that's what one writer said, or
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:because of the breadth of his teaching.
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:Hmm.
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:That's interesting.
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:Yeah.
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:So again, that part's not clear,
but probably it's a, it's a
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:nickname referring to one of those.
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:yeah, he's born in Athens, 425.
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:He, was one of the people who
was influenced and listened
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:to firsthand, Socrates.
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:He did a little bit of travel.
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:So, it's a little bit unclear, those
middle years, but then around 388 B.
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:C., he founded a school in
Athens to teach young men.
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:Now this is interesting.
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:So it was located in a grove outside
of Athens, and this grove was named
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:after a Greek hero named Akademos.
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:So the grove, then, was called Akademia.
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:Oh.
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:And his school then was called, well
in English we'd call it the Academy.
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:Whoa.
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:Yes, and of course we get our words
academic and academia from that.
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:Wow.
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:that's a good, trivia question there.
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:I like the little lesson in etymology.
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:So he's, so, okay, so he's in his
forties and he, starts the school.
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:Okay, then what?
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:And that, well, this school.
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:Okay, sorry, I, yeah.
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:No, that's fine.
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:you could argue that this school is
actually the first European university.
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:Because it doesn't just teach
philosophy, but mathematics,
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:astronomy, he even teaches some
biology and botany, apparently.
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:And then he, led the academy,
but he also lectured.
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:Now here's the deal, though.
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:We don't have those lectures.
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:Wow, what if we did?
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:I know so cool.
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:Yeah, people have speculated about
that that maybe What he does in the
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:lectures is a little bit different
than what he does in the dialogues
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:But hmm, there's no evidence for that.
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:It's just speculation but with Aristotle
You actually have the lecture notes
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:recorded by his students that have been
written down preserved published So when
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:you read Aristotle you're reading the
notes that he gave to or the lectures
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:he gave to the students You When you
read Plato, you're reading what he
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:wrote more for a popular audience.
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:Oh.
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:Hmm.
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:So, how does that, Well, it
makes him a lot more readable.
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:Yeah, I guess that's true.
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:And, and Aristotle was one
of his students, right?
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:Yes.
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:So, so Plato's got the school.
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:Socrates didn't.
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:No.
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:So, this is first, first university here.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Aristotle's one of the students,
and then Aristotle goes.
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:Does he go and end up teaching
and lecturing at that same?
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:No, he starts his own school.
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:Starts his own school, okay.
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:the Lyceum.
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:Lyceum, okay.
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:I forget what that means,
I'll have to look it up.
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:so what we have then are not his lectures,
but rather about 35 or 36 dialogues.
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:So they're separate books.
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:They're usually short,
not tremendously short.
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:You could probably read
one in three to four hours.
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:Some of these, there are a few
where the authorship is disputed,
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:but for the most part they're not.
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:We, we have the real deal.
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:So it's also the first philosopher that we
have this wealth of material from as well.
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:Yeah.
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:Wow.
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:Yeah.
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:And those dialogues, Socrates
is the main character, right?
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:Yes.
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:Usually.
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:Most of them.
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:Okay.
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:Especially in the early ones.
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:And they kind of develop
the Socratic method.
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:Yes.
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:Okay.
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:I'm, I'm putting the pieces together
here in real time ladies and gentlemen.
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:Yep.
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:Cool.
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:All right, so that's just
the bare outline of his life.
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:His life is obviously not as
important as his teaching.
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:He didn't do anything wondrous.
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:He wasn't martyred like Socrates.
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:Uh, but he was an amazing teacher
and communicator, that's for sure.
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:I mean, you could argue, some people
would argue that he actually started,
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:as, someone interested in literature
instead of philosophy, because he's
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:writing so well, his books read so well,
that they feel maybe he started that way
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:and then kind of went into philosophy.
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:Again, that's speculation.
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:Do we, do we have any notes of
his teaching on, mathematics
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:or botany or any of that stuff?
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:Or he's, he's pretty much
remembered as a philosopher?
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:Yes, just as a philosopher.
362
:Now, according to, uh, tradition
above, the academy there was a sign
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:that said somehow, Uh, let none enter
here who do not know mathematics.
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:Hmm.
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:And this was because probably, unlike
the Pythagoreans, remember them?
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:Mm hmm.
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:He's not really basing his philosophy on
mathematics, but rather that seemed to be,
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:this totally intellectual exercise, study
mathematics, that he, he really valued and
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:prized as you, this is one way you have to
learn to think with your mind logically.
370
:Hmm.
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:Hmm.
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:Hmm.
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:Wow.
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:Yeah.
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:Anyway, so that's his life.
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:Now last thing I'm gonna talk
about today is the difference
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:between Plato and Platonism.
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:Yes.
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:Yeah.
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:So sometimes people talk about the
difference between Calvin and Calvinism.
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:Mm-Hmm.
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:, the idea that his followers were
more Calvinistic than Calvinism,
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:you know, things like that.
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:Well, with Plato, well, you kind of have
that, but not the, quite the same way.
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:There are really three
different kinds of Platonism.
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:There's one that is Plato himself, so
what he taught or what he wrote down
387
:in the dialogues during his lifetime.
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:that's Platonism in its purest form.
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:and then the second form is
usually called Middle Platonism.
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:And this is from around
90 BC to two 50 ad.
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:And this is primarily from people
who taught or led in the academy.
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:And if you wanted to sum it up in one
or two sentences, I guess you could
393
:say it's, it's Plato, but revised and
corrected by Aristotle and his followers,
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:as well as influenced by the Stoics
and some of the other philosophers.
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:So it's Plato, but it's
modified a bit in that way.
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:What, I mean, just briefly,
what were those modifications?
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:Well, a lot of it has to do with the
theory of forms that we'll talk about.
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:Okay.
399
:So, Aristotle had a radically different
understanding of the forms, and
400
:he had some very cogent criticism
of Plato's theory of the forms.
401
:So part of it is that, and
there's some other things as well.
402
:And then the third is
probably the most interesting.
403
:The third is what's called Neoplatonism.
404
:You've heard me mention that before.
405
:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Neo meaning new.
408
:Right.
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:So this is going to come after
middle Platonism, presumably.
410
:Much later, actually.
411
:Usually dates from, from about, uh, 250.
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:And then we have an end date of 539
when the Emperor Justinian, shut down
413
:the school that was teaching this.
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:Yeah.
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:So there is an end point.
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:So about two 50 to five 29.
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:The thing is, though, that you
have antecedents to that, all the
418
:way into the 2nd and 1st century.
419
:What I mean by antecedents is, you
had ideas that were already in the
420
:air that were then later incorporated
into the system of Neoplatonism.
421
:Now, we can't really go into
that now because it is complex.
422
:But basically, it's a Platonism
Platonism that's also a religion.
423
:So it's a religious philosophy
or a philosophical religion.
424
:It's, it's not a religion where
you go and you worship and
425
:you're engaged in community.
426
:It's more of an intellectual, knowledge
of religious thought, basically.
427
:it's also different because
it's more heavily monistic.
428
:We'll explain that term
in the next episode.
429
:Think of a cocktail or a recipe.
430
:And if you mix in maybe three parts
of Plato, one part Gnosticism, one
431
:part the mystery religions, and one
part Old Testament, then you've
432
:got something like Neo Platonism.
433
:Wow.
434
:Yeah.
435
:It's thought provoking.
436
:Yeah.
437
:It's interesting.
438
:And it had influence beyond itself.
439
:Some of the themes it taught.
440
:were carried over into the Middle Ages,
not the whole scheme, but there were
441
:certain emphasis and themes, especially
about knowing God and mysticism that
442
:carried over into the Middle Ages and
even into today, but it was also conceived
443
:as a main competitor of Christian
theology, philosophically at least.
444
:And so some Christian theology
is a response to what's
445
:happening in neoplatonism.
446
:Ooh, that's interesting.
447
:Right.
448
:So Plato is Cutting a
wide swath of influence.
449
:Yeah, wow.
450
:Yeah.
451
:He and his descendants.
452
:So, real quickly, going back to the
idea of it being a religion, a religion
453
:of the mind, you just mean it's more,
it's, it becomes more intense, that
454
:people begin to get more dogmatic
about it, or it begins to get coupled
455
:with religious practices, or like,
in what sense does it move beyond.
456
:um, philosophy.
457
:Are there, are there gatherings
of people, or, or clubs formed
458
:based on the, the thought, or like,
how, what do you mean by that?
459
:Okay, yeah, fair enough.
460
:So, not religious in terms of activities.
461
:You didn't, you didn't have a weekly
meeting or anything like you would
462
:in, say, Judaism or Christianity.
463
:it wasn't like that.
464
:But, what's happening here, here.
465
:And I'm just going to paint a very
broad brush, but what you have
466
:is a philosophical system that
teaches that you need a salvation
467
:experience or a salvation route.
468
:So this, this goes beyond what
most philosophy does, right?
469
:So most philosophy explains the
world, maybe tells you what you
470
:should do in some situations.
471
:This one is saying you need to
fundamentally change, and there is
472
:a route of salvation in a sense.
473
:But, it's a salvation by knowing that's
why you have Gnosticism in there.
474
:Gnosticism means knowing, um, or
the religion associated with that.
475
:So it's, it's by knowing, it's not
by moral repentance or belief, say in
476
:Christ, or, or following a covenant.
477
:But as part of that knowing, it goes
beyond, it's, there is an intellectual
478
:knowing, very, very heavily involved.
479
:But there's also a knowing that
goes beyond the intellect and almost
480
:of a mystical union with the One.
481
:So in Neoplatonism, the One
is going to be functional,
482
:functionally equivalent to God.
483
:The highest thing, the
most valuable thing.
484
:so they're going to take that
idea from Plato and they're going
485
:to run with it and deepen it.
486
:But they would also view this idea that
you can ascend Towards the One, by your
487
:knowledge, but you can also have this
mystical union with the One in some ways.
488
:So, that's the goal.
489
:And that's very different
than most philosophies.
490
:Yeah.
491
:So, kind of follow up question.
492
:is that something that
also transcends death?
493
:I mean, are they talking about some sort
of afterlife as well, that's part of the
494
:religious uh, element of the philosophy?
495
:Not usually.
496
:Okay.
497
:Okay.
498
:I think there may be
different answers to that.
499
:I'll have to Okay, I'll have to
think about that a little bit more.
500
:Okay Well, this is great.
501
:This is exciting.
502
:Uh, you can already see the influence
Over the next 800 years as he goes
503
:to you know, as it becomes middle
platonism and neoplatonism, right?
504
:And we're already seeing the way
that that's converging with monism
505
:and christianity and all that stuff.
506
:Yeah Which is an interesting dynamic
because Plato, as we'll talk about in the
507
:next episode, is a strong dualist, but his
system lends itself to being interpreted
508
:monistically, which is interesting.
509
:Anyway, we'll come back to that.
510
:So unpack it next week.
511
:Yep, we'll do that.
512
:All right.
513
:Well, thank you for the, the
introduction to Plato and his
514
:life, his work, and his influences.
515
:And until next time.
516
:This is philosophy and faith.
517
:Okay.
518
:That's a nice outro.
519
:Thanks.