Episode 35

Plato's Creation Myth and Christian Thought

In this episode, the Daniel and Nathan delve into Plato's creation myth and the concept of dualism, discussing how it has influenced both ancient and modern philosophical and theological thought. They explore the role of the Demiurge in shaping the physical world, contrasting it with Christian theology's understanding of creation. The conversation also touches on the effects of dualism in Neoplatonism and its impact on Christian practices, such as asceticism and views on the physical body. Finally, they talk about how Plato and Neo-Platonism have shaped Christian views of heaven and the afterlife.

00:00 Introduction to the Creation Myth

00:10 Plato's Demiurge and the Realm of Forms

02:09 Christian Theology vs. Neoplatonism

03:11 The Physical World: A Mistake or a Gift?

04:38 Asceticism and Indulgence: Two Roads Diverged

06:25 Sexuality and Spirituality

11:27 Resurrection vs. Immortality

13:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): So the

last thing we're talking about, Was

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going into the creation myth, right?

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Yeah.

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Now let's talk about the

creation method a little bit.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Cool.

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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Plato in one of his

dialogues, that to me says.

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He gives an account of creation.

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And again, it's a myth or a parable.

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He's not necessarily saying this

is how it actually occurred.

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But it's his way of explaining what

he thinks reality is like maybe.

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Best way to put that.

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Okay.

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In this account.

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A spiritual being.

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Not to create a guide like us.

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He's a spiritual being within

the realm of reality as it were.

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And he's labeled the Demi urge.

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I forget why that's a weird title.

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Isn't it.

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Yeah, Demi urge.

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Um, anyway.

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The Demi urge.

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Before he does this.

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The only thing that exists is the

realm of forms or the realm of ideas.

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But the Demi urge takes matter.

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And begins fashioning this physical world.

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With kind of the blueprint

of the forums in mind.

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But it has to use this matter.

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And the matter is a little bit

recalcitrant, like Plato the modeling

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clay would be, you know, has limitations.

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So you can't really make the

perfect Taurus or the perfect

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form of justice within this world.

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All you can do is create things

that are like it in some way.

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They have some similarities to it.

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And that's what this

world consists though.

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This world consists this physical realm.

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Consists of.

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What the Demi urge has created out

of matter to bear some resemblance

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to inspired by the blueprint of the

forms as it were, I'm simplifying that.

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Sure.

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But that's kind of tells you the

relationship between those two.

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The best thing you can do then.

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Is try to look at something

and using your mind.

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try to understand the form of that

thing and not just understand the

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individual instance like that particular

horse or that particular human.

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And so it affects the whole way that he's

thinking through the goal philosophy or

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the goal of wisdom or the goal of life.

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that's where he's going with that.

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Does that make sense at all?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Now again in Christian theology.

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The forms become.

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What's in God's mind as he creates now.

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The Demi urge is not the creator.

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God.

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The damage is working with.

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Preexisting material.

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I preexisting ideas.

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I mean, I was going to ask like,

okay, where did that come from?

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But he's just given, he's just

given a story to try to illustrate.

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So he's not trying to

answer that question.

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No, I don't think he is.

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Okay.

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Some people disagree on how

seriously you should take that.

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Okay.

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So that's going to be different,

but, well, it's also going to be

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different than, but kind of like Plato.

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is when Neoplatonism comes along.

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They've got this whole hierarchy.

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Of spiritual beans.

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depending on the particular form of

Neoplatonism very closely tied to some

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of the mystery religions of the, First

and second century a D they've got

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these hierarchy of spiritual beings.

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Right.

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And they would have names

for each one of them.

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The Demi urge occupies a

middle lower position on that.

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So he's not even closed.

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The STEMI urge.

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It's not even close to being the one God.

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Or the one.

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and they would argue in Neoplatonism

that he makes a mistake when he

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does this, that this physical world.

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Shouldn't be here.

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The Debbie urge messed it up.

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Um, or the craftsman as a optical.

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It's it's a blender.

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It's a mistake.

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Yeah.

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So then you've got this whole idea.

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That the goal.

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Of enlightenment, but

even the virtuous life.

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Is to move away from the

physical as much as you are able.

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Yeah, because it's valueless.

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It's mistake.

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And have this life of knowledge

of the mind and this intellectual

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unity with the one, if you can.

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So this is all kind of flowing

out of that same stream of a

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Play-Doh that the physical world

is going to be less valuable.

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And they're going to increase that,

but it's a theme already in Play-Doh.

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So how, how would they like

move away from the physical

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nature in order to take on more?

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Spiritual.

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And be enlightened to spiritual things.

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Sure.

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Well first, you would just say that those

things don't matter if they're value less,

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just the physical, it doesn't matter.

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Right?

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That's like Paul saying like, Hey,

what you guys say is like, what you do

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in your body, doesn't matter because

it's all going to hell in a hand

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basket for the body, the body for food.

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Yeah.

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Uh, that's how he quotes them.

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And so you already see that idea of.

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It was already the first century.

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Neoplatonism as a system, as an

evolved until the third century,

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but its antecedents are here.

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Now.

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Once you make that move.

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That the physical world is not valuable.

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You have two roads before you

there's like a fork in the road then.

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One of those.

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Is the way of aestheticism

saying because of that.

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We're not going to engage

with the physical world.

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As much as possible.

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We're only going to do the

things We have to do to survive.

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So we're going to just give you this.

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little food as we can.

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We're going to abstain from sex.

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So abstinence becomes something

very prevalent as part of

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the spiritual life here.

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It's not in the Bible.

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we're going to abstain from sex.

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We're going to abstain from

food as much as possible.

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So you see this a lot of the

monks, um, and a lot of the.

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theologians emphasizing self denial.

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Part of is coming out of this.

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That's one road.

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The other road is to say, well,

the body and the things we do

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with the body don't matter.

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Therefore do whatever you want.

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You know, have all the sex you want

to go to all the prostitutes you

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want eat, drink, you'll be married.

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because all those things are valued.

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It's anyway, so it doesn't

make any difference.

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In your spiritual ascent.

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And that's the more popular road.

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For obvious reasons.

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Also not really in scripture.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So you got this full kind

of denial of the body or.

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Dishonoring of the body.

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Or this fall just embrace of like I,

it's also a dishonoring of the body.

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But just on the other side of that.

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Yeah, it's dishonoring the

body because the body is part

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of the half of the whiteboard.

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That's not valuable.

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that's not a biblical thought.

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Hmm.

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And yet we seal, we still see

the way that works within many

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Christians approach to life today.

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Yeah, on both sides of that spectrum.

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Sure.

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But more popularly in our context, maybe

on the, on the latter side of that.

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Yeah.

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But Even well into the late middle ages.

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You would have the Catholic

church often teaching.

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That sex is only for reproduction.

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And if you're not using it for

that, then you are sitting.

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And they will try to denigrate

the pleasure of that.

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You need it because, we need more

people, you know, God created

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us to have children that way.

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But really we want to minimize

sexual pleasure and sexual,

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Gloria as much as possible.

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Hmm.

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And then of course the

opposite side is today where.

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For most people.

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Sex has no spiritual meaning at all.

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It's just almost recreational.

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If you feel like you

want to do that, do it.

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It does it.

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Have this profound effect on

you spiritually because it's a

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bodily and also it's disconnected

from the procreative act.

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Yeah.

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Usually.

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Yeah.

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Um, so Both polarities of the spectrum.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So is that also related to the.

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These the abstinence concept related to

why the, um, priesthood is in, in the

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Catholic tradition is, um, reserved for.

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single.

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Yes.

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Man.

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Yeah.

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That's interesting.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you certainly don't

get it from the old Testament.

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Do you.

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The priests in the old

Testament were married.

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They were.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then in the new Testament, I don't

think it's proven to me, but from what

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I've read to be a member of the Sanhedrin.

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You had to be married.

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And so that's or to be a Pharisee of

the highest order you had to be married.

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And that's why I've made

people feel like Paul was.

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In his past before his conversion.

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Affairsy B.

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Um, That's why they feel like

he had a wife previously.

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Yeah, because in his role

as a teacher and a Pharisee.

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That would have been expected.

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Yeah, and I mean, I certainly don't want

to make a caricature of Catholic theology.

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I think it's more robust than that.

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Paul says, but it's

got some roots in that.

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I mean, Paul Paul makes the point that

as a single person, you can do more

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for the kingdom and that kind of thing.

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So there is that there's that, but.

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Um, I heard a, I heard a, a

Jewish anecdote about marriage.

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If you're interested.

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Lay it on me.

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Uh, there was a Jewish rabbi.

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It was said that in the,

certain Jewish mission.

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Now that.

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The only reason why you could

forsake your husband Lee

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duties would be to study Torah.

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And so there was debate on how

much you could leave your wife

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in order to go study Torah.

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And one rabbi said it was seven years.

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And so he left for seven years.

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To study Torah.

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And when he came back,

before he entered in.

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He heard his wife having a

conversation with one of her

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friends and her friend was like,

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That's gotta be hard for him

to, to leave for seven years.

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And she being a good wife said.

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I'll tell you what.

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Uh, because he's studying Torah.

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I give him another seven years.

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It's just so, so good and godly of him.

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So before I went in, he turned

back around, went and left for

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another seven years of study Torah.

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Interesting story.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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My point with all that.

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Is that.

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This dualism.

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Is not a historical antecedent.

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That only historians of philosophy

should be interested in.

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It's something for good or

for bad that has shaped.

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Christian thought, and even the

thought of Christians living.

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In the Western world.

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21st century.

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Yeah, for sure.

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it's kind of foundational, but I could

see the way that I can see the way that

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the, um, Christian thought, I mean, even

thinking back to Genesis and you've got

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God as creator and then his creation.

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I can see how that is

dualistic in a sense.

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And you can see that.

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At God exists.

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in a different way as a nonphysical

being, who's not becoming

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outside of time, not changing.

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You know, that kind of thing.

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I can, I can totally see that.

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Right.

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But you gotta be careful with what that

means for what's in that realm of matter

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and, and how you treat that because.

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You don't want to dishonor what

God has created and called good.

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You know, but oftentimes that can happen.

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That's exactly one of the

fundamental differences.

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That comes out of this then.

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For Plato.

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And Platonism.

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The body and the physical world.

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Are either bad.

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A mistake or at least value lists.

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For Christian thought biblical thought.

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The physical world is good.

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Six times guys says it is good.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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And the scriptures talk over and

over again about God creating it

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out of his good purpose that it

reflects some of the badges diem.

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Beauty of God.

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Yeah.

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Then he gives us things to enjoy.

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Uh, you would talks about, you know,

bread and wine, and he brings from

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the earth where humans to enjoy.

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You know, so.

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It's a radically different thing.

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In biblical theology creation, this

physical creation is a good thing.

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Yes, it can be idealized.

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It can be abused.

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But that doesn't mean it's not good.

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it just.

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Tells you that it is good.

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You know, you don't pervert.

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Something that's already bad.

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Yeah.

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In that sense.

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And I think the way this plays out is.

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The prevalence of the idea that after we

die, Our eternal state is going to be.

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An immortality instead of a resurrection.

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So this non bodily existence.

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In heaven on the cloud somewhere.

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The prevalence of that idea

drives me crazy because that

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is not, not the biblical idea.

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The biblical idea is even if there's

an intermediate state between the goal

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is resurrection in a physical body.

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On the earth.

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That is a clear teaching of scripture.

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Yeah.

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So we'll be having well in the sense that.

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God himself then is able

to 12 with his creatures.

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So if you'd find heaven as all things

are right in way of union with God.

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Yes, that's happened.

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But it's not someplace out in the farthest

galaxy or beyond the, the universe itself.

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It's it's this world.

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Yeah, this earth.

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God makes a good earth.

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He creates men and women to be his

ambassadors, his representatives

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within this physical world.

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And that is such a, like all things.

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God does.

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It is a good and wise plan and

he's not going to give up on it.

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He might take a different way to get there

because of his allowance for human sin.

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Because we're free.

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We'll be in soccer and give up on that.

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So, anyway, and again, I'm preaching now.

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Well, no, it's good.

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To reiterate, not just humans

either, but all of creation.

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Yes.

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guy created.

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Creation with a purpose in

mind for humans to expand the

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garden and to develop culture.

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And these sort of organize the

raw materials to bring about.

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It's goodness, in a way that it started

as a fledgling and it's going to grow.

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Right.

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And so he's still bringing

it to that purpose.

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He's not.

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Just.

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plucking Christians out to

go to this other place, to

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get rid of the earth, but to.

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Resurrect all of it.

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Yes.

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Humans in creation.

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Yeah.

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Together.

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Yes.

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I don't know if it's the main reason.

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Maybe though the main reason we

have lost sight of that is because.

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Christian theology has taken in too

much play too on this particular point.

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Anyway.

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Yeah.

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I mean we're, I mean, we're getting

at the heart of what we're trying to.

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As I discuss here that the

influence between these two and.

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try to distinguish between them so that

we can have, better theology, right?

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That's the goal.

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Hopefully this helps.

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So, yeah.

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Well, thank you for exploring.

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Plato's biggest idea of dualism and

the illustrations are really helpful.

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So hopefully people have a chance to

write down and kind of conceptualize it.

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The image that you.

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had for us about the whiteboard

and all these different.

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links.

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Yeah, I hope so.

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But really, really helpful.

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Thinking through.

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How we understand reality

and our idea of dualism and.

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Especially in case there are ways in which

we dishonor the physical either through.

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denigrating and trying to get

rid of, or through excess.

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Right.

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All right, that's it for now.

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Thanks my pleasure.

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See.

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See ya.

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See ya.

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