Episode 31

The Sophists: Foundations of Skepticism and Relativism (The History of Philosophy, part 10)

Understanding Sophism: Background, Impact, and Critiques

In this episode, the discussion focuses on the Sophists, their role in ancient philosophy, and their impact on subsequent thought. We delve into their characteristics, methodologies, and goals, exploring how they served as both a culmination and a reaction to earlier philosophical ideas. Daniel summarizes their teaching under the three headings of: skepticism, relativism, and pragmatism. The conversation ultimately highlights the critical role the Sophists played in setting the stage for the great philosophers Plato and Aristotle. Through an analysis of Sophist principles and the response by Socrates and Plato, the episode offers a comprehensive understanding of this significant yet often misunderstood philosophical movement.

00:00 Introduction to the Topic

00:36 The Role and Influence of Sophists

02:06 Sophists' Business Model and Teaching Methods

04:58 Protagoras and His Teachings

06:53 Skepticism in Sophist Philosophy

11:23 Relativism Explained

18:24 Pragmatism in Sophist Thought

18:49 The Concept of Enlightened Self-Interest

20:00 Pragmatism and Societal Values

21:50 Cultural Practices and Moral Relativism

23:34 Custom vs. Nature: The Debate

25:26 Sophocles' Antigone: A Case Study

27:59 Socrates and Plato: Challenging Relativism

33:04 The Legacy of the Sophists

36:01 Conclusion and Next Steps

Transcript
Speaker:

. So today we're going to be

talking about this office or some

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people will pronounce it selfish.

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I've heard it either way.

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I think either way is acceptable,

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okay.

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Okay.

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But is it a non Macron or an omega?

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That is a non McRob.

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So at Sophos.

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Well, probably, but once

you transliterate something.

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In English.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That's it So far.

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Yeah, it does.

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But I usually go with that,

just, you know, usually pick

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up what your own teachers.

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how they used it.

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And sometimes if they're educated

in United States versus say in

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Europe, that makes a difference.

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So some of my teachers, yeah.

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Pronounce things different

ways than each other.

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. Interchangeable.

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We'll we'll be on the same page here.

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Got you.

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So why are we talking about who are

they and why don't you to situate us

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a little bit in this conversation?

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So they are in many ways, a culmination

of the philosophies that have gone before.

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And also reaction to those philosophies.

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And then in Doing So they set.

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The stage for The great philosophers.

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Plato and Aristotle.

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So they have.

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a Transitional role, but it's

very crucial because without them.

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I.

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think you.

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Could argue.

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That Plato and Aristotle would not

have developed their great systems.

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So they're kind of reacting against.

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Yes.

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Oh, yes.

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Definitely.

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Cool.

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Cool.

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And so.

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are they.

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One particular.

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School.

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Um, no, No, not exactly.

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They share some common

characteristics, but for them.

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It's not so much about particular

dogmas, but just general trends

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that United them together and

their methodology and their goals.

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Okay.

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So are these guys located

interspersed throughout Greece?

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And they're just kind of exactly.

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So they would be traveling

teachers basically.

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Oh, And they'd go from city to city.

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Uh, Many of them were headquarters

in Athens because it was large

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enough to support many of them.

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But their goal was to go

around and teach people.

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And Sophos of course comes from

Sophia, the Greek word for wisdom.

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So originally just met a wise person or

a teacher who would go around to teach.

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It later because of Plato and

Aristotle became a term of a, I.

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I.

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don't know.

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It's a term of abuse, but

it's not usually a compliment.

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Maybe pejorative a little bit.

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Yeah, it's a little bit pejorative.

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these guys.

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are they funded by anybody are.

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they.

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Funded by the government or did

he go charge for their education?

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Yeah.

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So this is one of the great differences

between them and the philosophers who came

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before is that their business model is

I'm going to charge you for this wisdom.

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I'm teaching you.

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I'm not saying none of the others did that

before, but this is relatively new as a.

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way of doing philosophy.

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So were the other guys who

came before, of by vocational.

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Yeah.

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A lot of them weren't okay.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So, this is interesting, a new

kind of itinerant philosopher.

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Traveler.

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Go and teach somewhere for a few

weeks or months or years or something.

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Go travel somewhere else and right.

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Interesting.

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methodology there and.

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make sense that they're ideas

we get spread around because

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they were spread around.

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Yeah, they certainly were.

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And there are in many ways, a culmination

and a little bit of reaction to the

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previous philosophers, The other part of

cultural context or historical context.

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That we should have in mind here.

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Is that the centuries they're

writing in are really The

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high point of Greek democracy.

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sorry the third teaching in.

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They didn't do much writing.

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Some of them did.

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you're looking at the fifth

and fourth century BC.

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So 500 to 300 BC.

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During this time period, You have Greece

moving from an aristocracy to a democracy.

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When that happens, you have a

need for a new kind of education.

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For many people.

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Instead of everything being

controlled by the elite families.

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People who are up and coming and

have the right skills, can gain

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power political and otherwise.

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And so the Sophos teachers were all about

educated people towards those goals.

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Hmm.

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So in the notes here, you say

that there's more spin doctors and

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not so much academic researchers.

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Yeah.

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I heard someone say that.

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we would call them that today,

there were more spin doctors than

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dispassionate academic researchers.

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what does spin doctor?

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what does that mean?

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Exactly?

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Well, it means that their goal was

not necessarily to find truth, but to

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use truth towards other ends or use.

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Okay.

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Reasoning.

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Wisdom the skills that they would teach.

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And so that's, really the big shift here.

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So they had an agenda.

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Yes, but it was an agenda of helping each

individual student become more successful.

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Um, okay, so it wasn't some

grand metaphysical agenda.

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It was, Hey, we had skills that

will really help you advance

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here in democratic Greece.

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And for small fee.

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Well, that's what it wasn't

they charge pretty high fees.

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Uh, we will teach them to you.

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So it's like modern, self-help

gurus who have no academic.

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they just feel like they've

found something that works.

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And so you see their ads

on YouTube all the time.

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Right?

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That's actually not a bad analogy.

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Yeah.

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Although many of the sofas we're some

pretty creative and original thinkers.

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They had some credentials, but, okay.

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but yeah, the whole point.

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being self-improvement

self-help, how they defined it.

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Gotcha.

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So, why don't you tell us about

some of these guys or at least you

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have the most influential one here.

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I want you tell us a little

bit about protagonists.

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Right.

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And remember how we talked

about pronunciation earlier?

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Yes.

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I get it wrong.

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No, no, I that's.

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How I've heard it pronounced.

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That's how I'm going to use it.

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But I have heard at least two different

people call her proto Garris, huh?

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I'm sticking with Protagoras..

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it's P R O T a G O R a S.

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Okay.

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And I pronounce it Protagoras.

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he's a born about four eighty one.

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BC at some point he moves to Athens.

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you'll see him pop up again and

again, in Plato's dialogues.

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As someone who is more than

just trying to make a buck.

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So he offered.

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More than just getting ahead.

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He promised to teach you in.

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Virtue or excellence.

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the Greek word, there is a red day.

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I've also heard it pronounced.

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Everett.

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It's a R E T E is how you

put that in English letters.

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And that could translate

either virtue or excellence.

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Previously, if you were thinking of

those terms, you were thinking of

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some sort of great moral excellence.

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And here it's not so much that it's

more about becoming the best person

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that you can be becoming noble in

your soul But again Attached to

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that is this purpose of rising.

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In the Athenian democracy.

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To become a great.

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person.

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Gotcha.

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So.

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Is he talking about The four

Cardinal virtues Well, those

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won't be delineated until later.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So, no, it's more just about,

self-improvement Of your

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moral and intellectual self.

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but we're going to have to

qualify, especially that moral bar.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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and I'm going to kind

of use him as a model.

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I'm going to sum up their views and

their influence under three terms.

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Skepticism relativism and pragmatism.

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Okay.

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I think that's not a bad

template to talk about them.

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Cool.

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Let's take them one at a time.

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What skepticism.

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we've talked about skepticism in the past.

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Very often today it means someone who

is skeptical of religious claims, but

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and philosophy, usually meets someone

who is skeptical about knowledge

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claims or truth claims the idea that

you can actually no objective truth.

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And that's what we mean in here.

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So these people are claiming.

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Protagoras among them.

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That you can.

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I know absolute objective truth.

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Again, if we trace this, this

is a combination of many of the

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themes that we've already seen.

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All the different pre-Socratic

philosophers came to

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different conclusions.

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So it's natural to look at that

and say, well, all these smart

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guys can come to the same place on.

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these ultimate issues,

then maybe there isn't.

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ultimate answer on these things.

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And very often.

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As we've also talked about.

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If you really dig deep into the

philosophy of the pre Socratics,

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they seem to undermine their truth

claims by the way that their work.

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For example, daily said

everything is water.

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Yeah.

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Does that mean?

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My mind is water.

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Does that mean my thoughts are water.

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The movements of my

mind or like the tides.

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Why then, should I have any belief

that my thoughts are correct?

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Including the thought

that all things are water.

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Yeah.

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And again, We applied

that again and again.

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even when the pre-Socratic would

give a more rational answer, like all

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things are mind are ruled by mind.

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There's not an indication

where the mine came from.

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You know, what does it mean?

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How do we know what works.

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that's what I say.

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They're both a reaction to the

truth claims, but they're also a

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culmination of the problems that

the pre-Socratic philosophers had

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in developing in a piston biology.

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A theory of knowledge.

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so skepticism is just.

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I'm trying to understand it.

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So it's a, it's a more technical term.

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Then how we would probably

use it in English and.

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outside of philosophical circles, right?

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Yes.

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You said they're skeptical

of all such truth claims?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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They're skeptical that you can have

ultimate knowledge or objective knowledge.

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So you mean it's.

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The culmination in the sense that

it's kind of the logical end of

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that philosophers that have come

before they're they're the guys.

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Who are pointing out.

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That there's some.

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Circular reasoning here.

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I pissed him a logically speaking.

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Yeah.

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And what's interesting.

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I don't know.

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I haven't seen where they

have actually pointed out.

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The circular reasoning or the

self-defeating nature Other

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pre-Socratic philosophers.

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from what I seen appear on.

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The scene and start teaching.

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There is no absolute truth.

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So I'm kind of reading

into that, to be honest.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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But It is a reaction against some of these

folks who have made ultimate truth claims.

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And they've come Onto the

scene and they've totally.

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started injecting skepticism into

The validity of those truth claims.

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Right?

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Okay.

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Someone said you could sum up the,

spirit of the age in postmodern

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America as a distrust of narratives.

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So just trust of any story or

truth claim the seeks to give

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an answer to the big picture.

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And obviously that's not

a term they would use.

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But they're certainly in

line with that spirit.

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Hmm.

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Wow.

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And really, I think they're

one of the first, if not the

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first group of philosophers.

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To actually define themselves

as skeptics in that way.

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You see glimpses of it before.

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But the skepticism and the relativism.

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Very much connected that we'll

talk about here in a second.

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They seem to be the first ones to

really define and promote that as

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a central part of their belief.

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Gotcha.

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Well, Are you got any other comments on

skepticism before we move to relativism?

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Let me give a quote by a

protagonists concerning the gods.

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Okay.

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I believe in the gods.

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And again, he's thinking of the

Olympian gods and the others.

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this is just a typical expression.

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I have that skeptical attitude.

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Quote concerning the gods.

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I am not in a position to know either

that they are or that they are not.

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Or what they're like in appearance.

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For there are many things

that are preventing knowledge.

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The excursion of the matter

and the brevity of human life.

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So, because the matter is obscure,

people are on different sides of it.

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Because.

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We have a finite time to

think of through this.

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He says, I can't know or not know.

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So he's not an atheist.

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He's an agnostic on this sense.

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Um, So, I mean, that sounds like a

reasonable and humble perspective.

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Well, it is, but again, you're going

to apply this to all truth claims.

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Okay.

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So they would say it's not just on this.

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We have to be agnostic, but

on any ultimate truth claim.

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Okay.

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So the second.

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Part of this then is relativism.

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We were just talking about.

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The temperature in the room.

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Yeah.

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Casey went out yesterday.

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Well, it didn't go out, but couldn't.

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Change.

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It with a thermostat.

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And so I had to call the

AC guy and he got it fixed.

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So, is it warmer, cold.

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In here now.

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It's much cooler than it was.

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Okay.

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Do you ever had a time where

like you and Abby, your wife.

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Are disagreeing on whether the house is.

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Too cool or too warm.

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You know, We haven't too much,

but I do know couples that have.

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I tell you, we both liked

to run it pretty cold.

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Yeah.

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My wife, especially lots to run it.

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Uh, Like freezing temperature

Yeah in the evening.

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She likes to sleep with that

thing, cranked as low as possible.

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Really.

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Yeah, That's an exaggeration, right?

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Well, I'd probably say I drink.

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But I do like 68, 66.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah.

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We're at like 68, 69, I think.

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Yeah.

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66 is getting pretty cold.

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It's always by the way I know it's

totally tangental, but it's crazy to me.

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How much, one degree difference.

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makes.

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it's on a thermostat, but anyway,

anyway, So it could be in the same

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room, my wife and I, especially

in the evening and children.

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well, it's too warm in here.

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Can we turn down the AC.

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And I'm thinking.

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Um, pretty cold in here already, you know?

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Yeah.

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So I say that because that's an

example that they would use back then.

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they talked about Uh, warmer.

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cool air.

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One person might say.

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The breeze is cool Another warm.

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And in this case, They are each making

a claim about their own perception.

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And the truth of that claim

is only relative to them.

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Hm.

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So, if I am feeling that the room

is cold and I say this room is cold.

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Relative to me, that statement is true.

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But Amy could be in the same room and

she say, now, This room is warm, and

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if she feels it's warm, then relative.

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To her.

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That statement is true for her.

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So is it.

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Warm or cold in the room.

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And the point is in that particular case.

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It's relative to the person

who's making the judgment.

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Hmm.

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No, we get that.

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That makes sense, right?

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Yeah, for sure.

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But they're going to

extend this to everything.

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every claim made every truth claim maimed.

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Is relative only to the person who makes

it, there is not an object of standard.

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Each person makes their own claim.

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And what's true for you is

not necessarily true for me.

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Gotcha.

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So going back to the example of.

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the gods, he said.

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You know, I'm not in a position to know.

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applying this.

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Relativistic.

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Perspective to that.

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Would he say, you know, if you I think

that the gods exist and they do, or if I

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think that they don't, then they don't.

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I mean, how does that I would think so.

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I didn't see him address that

Exact scenario, but it would

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seem to be consistent with that.

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But see, that's so interesting to me it's

like, well, they either do, or they don't.

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You know, so you're not a Sophos.

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I can see how this kind of

flows naturally from skepticism.

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Yeah.

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Or maybe skepticism flows

naturally from this.

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Exactly Is that clear?

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right.

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they're sisters, if not twins.

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They go together.

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So if I can't have any knowledge then.

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my, my truth claims are not

transcended claims about an object

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of knowledge, but simply how I

experience or how I think about things.

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And that's relativism.

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Gotcha.

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Protagoras said it most succinctly

man is the measure of all things.

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Now he did not mean that we are.

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this glorious creation and the

highlight of all the animal kingdom.

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He meant that each person.

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Each man, because again, they're

usually not going to talk about women.

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Each man.

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Measures everything.

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And he's the only standard of

measurement of whether it's true or not.

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and he applies this.

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Or at least Plato in his

dialogues applied it to him.

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In regard to that question of whether

it's, whether the breeze is warm or cold.

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Mansa, Metro, both things.

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So if he measures it cold, it's cold.

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If he measures it's warm, it's warm.

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but he's talking about An individual

man, not humanity or mankind.

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Yeah.

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That's a good question.

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There's actually been debate about that.

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But because of the ways you used.

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As Plato understood him.

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in his dialogues, he was talking

about each person experiencing that

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breeze at a different temperature.

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Plato interpreter him is saying

that it was true for an individual,

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not for humanity as a whole.

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So, unless I see strong reasons,

I'm going to assume Plato probably

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understood him pretty well.

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Yeah.

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That's so interesting because it makes

sense with things like the breeze and

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perception, but with other things that.

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Like there, where they would be

contradiction for people too.

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Each man is the measure of all things.

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It's just a very interesting, it stopped

provoking of how I'd be interested

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in having a conversation with.

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Protagoras just to see what

that was, that was like.

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Sure.

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Well, he probably best you because he

was pretty good in analysis and debate.

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Apparently.

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That's what his specialty was.

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I bring you with me.

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I'm just trying to have a cup of

coffee here and an interesting

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conversation while you relax.

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He sounds kind of intense.

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:

Uh, maybe I don't know much

about it personally, but.

454

:

Um, but think about this then.

455

:

It man is the measure by which all things.

456

:

Or if man is what all

things are measured by.

457

:

Then you do not have by definition,

any concept of absolute truth.

458

:

There's no concept of right or wrong.

459

:

That's transcendent beyond man.

460

:

There's no concept of ultimate values.

461

:

Or purpose other than.

462

:

An individual man's.

463

:

determination of those things.

464

:

So what you've done.

465

:

And for the first time.

466

:

Explicitly done.

467

:

Is you have.

468

:

Cut off the top floor as it were.

469

:

You had said.

470

:

Mankind.

471

:

Is the only thing.

472

:

there is nothing above us that gives us

any sort of transcendent value or meaning.

473

:

It's all flattened out.

474

:

So there's nothing that is transcendent

that really affects us at all.

475

:

So Am I correct though,

trying to think there are past

476

:

conversations that there hasn't.

477

:

I mean this idea of absolute truth.

478

:

Absolute morality.

479

:

Hasn't totally been articulated.

480

:

Right because it hasn't

really been challenged.

481

:

In quite this formal

and consistent of a way.

482

:

So maybe it's, presumed to

exist, but there aren't people

483

:

out there trying to defend.

484

:

Absolute morality or.

485

:

Yeah.

486

:

I think that sentence.

487

:

That's what I would read it.

488

:

Yeah.

489

:

So, okay.

490

:

I mean, it makes sense then.

491

:

As Plato comes along, maybe he's

going to argue for some of that stuff.

492

:

or.

493

:

Okay.

494

:

So.

495

:

It's so interesting.

496

:

I love this historical approach because

you're seeing the way that it kind

497

:

of ebbs and flows and people have

ideas and they interact with that.

498

:

I I mean, nobody's writing in a vacuum.

499

:

And it's, it's really neat.

500

:

So even, before.

501

:

The transcendent truth is.

502

:

Argued, it's kind of presumed.

503

:

These guys are cutting at the

roots of that with their pragmatism

504

:

and relativism and skepticism.

505

:

Right.

506

:

and then that's going to be backed

up by some of the later guys.

507

:

So anything else on relativism

before I moved to pragmatism?

508

:

No, we'll circle back around.

509

:

We'll talk about the analysis

of some of this at the end.

510

:

Okay.

511

:

Cool.

512

:

So what's, pragmatism again.

513

:

This is another word that I feel like

we use generally, but probably has

514

:

a more technical definition here.

515

:

Well, Plaza is always trying to

make things more technical, but

516

:

in this case, The commonplace

definition is pretty good where.

517

:

You're basically concerned

with just getting along.

518

:

choosing the right means.

519

:

It's an emphasis on method over in goals.

520

:

Or just focus on what works.

521

:

Hmm.

522

:

So I'm not using any more technical

sense, but just the idea of.

523

:

Because there's.

524

:

No absolute truth.

525

:

Because there's no absolute standard.

526

:

There's no absolute purpose or morality.

527

:

Then what do you do?

528

:

Well, you do whatever works for your

own enlightened self advancement.

529

:

Enlightened self advancement.

530

:

Is the goal.

531

:

And whatever works towards

that is what you should do.

532

:

W, what do you mean by enlightened?

533

:

You just mean Intellectually.

534

:

Yeah.

535

:

So I think they didn't use that term.

536

:

enlightened self-interest

they would probably just use

537

:

self-interest, but it seems to go

along with their overall thought.

538

:

So a child can have the idea of what they

want is being the best thing for them.

539

:

But it's only later when they are.

540

:

more intelligent and wise

and can judge things better.

541

:

That they can see that some of the things

they thought were in their self-interest

542

:

before really weren't And enlightened

self-interest is one that understands.

543

:

That there's a long

game to be played here.

544

:

And it's not just what I desire right now.

545

:

But what will ultimately bring me

fulfillment and happiness and contentment.

546

:

That's what I'm choosing.

547

:

Okay.

548

:

So it's, knowing the right path.

549

:

But according to me, because man

is the measure of all things.

550

:

And so presumably the Sophos are

going to go around and try to say.

551

:

Hey, here's what the good life looks like.

552

:

And here's how you can be on it.

553

:

Right.

554

:

it's going to be very practical.

555

:

It's not going to include all this about

the gods in Transcendent truths and.

556

:

It's going to say here, is

that, is that about right?

557

:

Yeah.

558

:

I think that's a good way of putting it.

559

:

Okay.

560

:

Okay.

561

:

I might have the self-interest

to go out and eat?

562

:

Three cheeseburgers and some, uh,

cheesecake and fries for lunch.

563

:

Um, but that's not really my best

interest in the longterm, right?

564

:

Yeah.

565

:

So my enlightened self

interest says, okay.

566

:

My goal is to be able

to enjoy this life that.

567

:

Means I need to have a

certain measure of health.

568

:

So I'm going to restrain my desire right

now, but it's still for myself interest.

569

:

It's just a little bit more

enlightened than say a child.

570

:

Okay.

571

:

Or an animal.

572

:

Yeah.

573

:

That makes total sense.

574

:

I mean.

575

:

pragmatic is a good word.

576

:

That makes sense.

577

:

Yeah.

578

:

Yeah.

579

:

That's.

580

:

The idea of pragmatic.

581

:

Protagoras quote, virtue is

what is advantageous to me.

582

:

So that's a pretty

interesting quote there.

583

:

There's another quote, attributed to

him and want to play those dialogues.

584

:

For, I hold that whatever practices

seemed right and laudable.

585

:

to any particular state.

586

:

R.

587

:

So for that state, As

long as it holds by them.

588

:

As long as with them.

589

:

So here is extending that to.

590

:

society as A whole.

591

:

society.

592

:

If there are practices within

that society at the same, right.

593

:

And laudable where the appraise.

594

:

society.

595

:

Then they are.

596

:

As long as I stayed, holds by them.

597

:

they are, Hmm.

598

:

So this wasn't a revolutionary,

everyone do what they want.

599

:

Overthrow the government,

you know, have anarchy.

600

:

This was, Hey.

601

:

the laws and The Values of

particular state or, here it's

602

:

best for you to go along with them.

603

:

or.

604

:

There may be a point where it's

an app, but for the most part, get

605

:

along with the society's values.

606

:

That's a pragmatic thing to do.

607

:

or.

608

:

Yeah.

609

:

along with I mean, that, makes sense.

610

:

It does.

611

:

Until you come to question

like, well, what about slavery?

612

:

Something like that.

613

:

Or what about, you know, in Spartans?

614

:

Back to their own time exposing babies.

615

:

So if you don't want to baby, you

didn't have route to abortion,

616

:

but once the baby was born, if you

didn't want it, you would expose it

617

:

to the elements and it would die.

618

:

That was practicing Greece.

619

:

I don't know that.

620

:

it was an Athens, but it

certainly wasn't Sparta.

621

:

It's their own So that was a cultural

value held within A whole Greek society.

622

:

And.

623

:

You know, you come to question with that

weight, are you saying that there's

624

:

no way to determine that's wrong?

625

:

Other than the culture

itself eventually changes.

626

:

Hmm.

627

:

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

628

:

It's.

629

:

There's value in going with the

culture, but what about when the

630

:

culture is practicing something that.

631

:

Does it seem.

632

:

right?

633

:

Yeah, there's no way to

critique your culture.

634

:

There's no transcendent basis to say

a value that's prevalent within my

635

:

culture or another culture is wrong.

636

:

On a transcendent basis.

637

:

Right.

638

:

Other than, I mean, they could.

639

:

they could.

640

:

give reasons like, well, we want

to increase our population because

641

:

that's better for people or yada,

yada, yada, so the, argument, would

642

:

be based off of practical reasons,

not any sort of transcendent.

643

:

Yeah, absolute morality.

644

:

Yep.

645

:

So what did they just kind of accept that

when, when questions came up like about.

646

:

Slavery or, I mean, you would Yeah.

647

:

I don't think they even

questioned slavery.

648

:

I mean, that wasn't an issue.

649

:

Anyone questioned at that time.

650

:

So what about other issues

that maybe were a little bit

651

:

more contentious for the time?

652

:

What was the baby?

653

:

thing, contentious.

654

:

I don't know, actually it seems like

it should be, but I don't really.

655

:

Remember any debates about

that in ancient Greece?

656

:

Yeah, I mean, it seems.

657

:

Now, at least to us in our

context seems pretty, wrong.

658

:

Yeah.

659

:

So I'm kind of related to this.

660

:

There is a distinction that

many of the Sophos may between.

661

:

with custom in nature.

662

:

And this is a little bit different.

663

:

Take on it here though.

664

:

So custom the word there would

be the Greek word, not Moss.

665

:

well, we want Which can be also translated

law, but here is referring to customs.

666

:

Uh, Uh, customers something.

667

:

That a society has

chosen new value and do.

668

:

maybe an arbitrary sense, like

in the United States, we drive

669

:

on the right side of the road.

670

:

that wasn't anyone.

671

:

And if you go over to England, Okay.

672

:

You're going to problem because

they have a different custom.

673

:

And what they're arguing is

that all the laws and values.

674

:

Particular culture, our customs, none

of them have this transcendent basis.

675

:

So some of them then took them.

676

:

Some of this office, not all of them.

677

:

And I don't think Protagoras.

678

:

And so.

679

:

Took that as saying, well, since

all the laws are customs, Really,

680

:

we should prefer the law of nature.

681

:

Which is that the strong

should rule over the week.

682

:

That seems to be very given to them by

the fact that they are the stronger.

683

:

So many of them argued for that

based upon this pragmatic idea.

684

:

there That all the laws and

rules of society are simply

685

:

customs they're chosen, but

they're not transcendent values.

686

:

Hmm.

687

:

So the, one transcendent value was

that the strong rule, the weak.

688

:

Well, they would argue that

that's not a human custom.

689

:

That's a natural value

found in the, animal world.

690

:

For example.

691

:

A so everything Other than that was.

692

:

just customs.

693

:

Um, Well, I mean, there

had to be some overlap.

694

:

Thinking of Venn diagram here.

695

:

Right side of the road.

696

:

And if you can do.

697

:

You're It depends on this office.

698

:

I think, you know, I'm trying to

conflate many of them together

699

:

just to make it a little bit more

simplified and you get an overview.

700

:

But some of them, I

believe, would say that.

701

:

Probably some of that one.

702

:

Okay.

703

:

basis.

704

:

Gotcha.

705

:

No.

706

:

There's an interest in an

example of how this works out in.

707

:

Sophocles play Antigony.

708

:

I remember when I was a

freshman in college, the theater

709

:

department did this play.

710

:

And I was interested in one of the

girls who was playing the lead.

711

:

So I made sure to go to that.

712

:

Anyway.

713

:

nature just that If you ever seen Greek

theater, it's, it's very, very weird

714

:

if you're not used to it, you know?

715

:

But here's the background of the play.

716

:

So there's a civil war.

717

:

At the end, Creon, the king of

thieves proclaims at the body.

718

:

to Polly NECs I may not

be pronouncing that.

719

:

Right, but I'm going with it.

720

:

The Paulini see, as the leader of

the opposition remains on buried.

721

:

use.

722

:

in great tradition, this is a big no-no.

723

:

that'll Because if one's body was

not buried, then the spirit cannot

724

:

do part the Hades, the place of rest.

725

:

custom.

726

:

So Polynesia sister and

Tiffany defies to decree.

727

:

And Barry's the body.

728

:

It depends on the.

729

:

She's brought before the king.

730

:

She acknowledges that she

knew of the King's order.

731

:

in the.

732

:

And then she depends her

actions in these words.

733

:

These are very powerful, right?

734

:

some of that one.

735

:

It was not Zeus who published this decree.

736

:

Nor have the powers who rule

among the dead impose such

737

:

laws as this upon mankind.

738

:

That you should not bury him.

739

:

Nor could I think that a decree of

yours, a man could override the laws

740

:

of heaven, unwritten and unchanging.

741

:

in the queue.

742

:

Not up today or yesterday.

743

:

Is there authority?

744

:

They are eternal.

745

:

No man saw their birth.

746

:

one of the Was I to stand before

the gods tribunal for disobeying

747

:

them because I feared a man.

748

:

You ever in quote, it's very So her

point is beyond the conventional

749

:

justice that the king ruled down.

750

:

Don't bear this man,

because the king said, so.

751

:

There is a transcendent justice that

the King's laws may or may not align

752

:

with, but it's there, it's a turtle.

753

:

It's unchanging.

754

:

Before the Sophos.

755

:

And you couldn't make that appeal.

756

:

Hmm.

757

:

They're one might not, you might not

like a law and you might see to change

758

:

it, but there is no appeal to a higher.

759

:

Uh, more transcendent law to

justify violating any human law.

760

:

known Including the laws of slavery.

761

:

the spirit of So she's saying that.

762

:

The law.

763

:

of the king should be interpreted in light

of The law that the gods put in place.

764

:

Right.

765

:

It's office are saying.

766

:

new order?

767

:

There's no such thing.

768

:

Exactly.

769

:

So to each their own, when it comes

to interpreting the law, right.

770

:

Hm.

771

:

So that's a good example of how

that worked out and in drama,

772

:

that kind of debate and dialogue.

773

:

Yeah, that's neat.

774

:

A little bit richer than most of

our entertainment choices today.

775

:

You want to hop over to

analysis of all this?

776

:

Yeah, let's do that could All right.

777

:

heaven.

778

:

So obviously we are giving in one

half hour or 40 minute discussion.

779

:

in analysis of a whole movement of

the better part of two centuries,

780

:

we're making broad statements.

781

:

Yeah.

782

:

And this whole time.

783

:

But we're helped in our

analysis because people who are

784

:

very close to the situation.

785

:

did a lot of this hard work for us.

786

:

And especially Socrates and Plato.

787

:

So I'm just going to quibble

off their notes a little bit.

788

:

Now we have to remember.

789

:

Socrates didn't write anything.

790

:

Socrates.

791

:

Is the.

792

:

teacher of Plato.

793

:

And then Play-Doh who is the great

systematizer the great philosopher.

794

:

is going to create these dialogues.

795

:

It went to Socrates is

one of the characters.

796

:

And is going to argue.

797

:

These issues.

798

:

With the other people in the dialogues.

799

:

He's got 34 dialogue, 34 35.

800

:

and only one of those is by name.

801

:

At least it's devoted to one of the

previous philosophers, but for them.

802

:

but Are labeled by name

to one of the Sophos.

803

:

li.

804

:

So it kind of tells you.

805

:

what battles he was trying to fight.

806

:

Yeah.

807

:

It gets some significant.

808

:

screen time.

809

:

Yes, exactly.

810

:

Yeah.

811

:

And so his basic viewpoint is this.

812

:

Hostility to, or skepticism of the

idea of absolute truth is unacceptable.

813

:

You can't be hostile to, or skeptical of

the idea that there is an absolute truth.

814

:

a And I think he would argue two things.

815

:

Well, he did argue these.

816

:

First.

817

:

Because of the obvious

self-defeating nature of the claim

818

:

that there is no absolute truth.

819

:

that itself is a truth.

820

:

claim, right?

821

:

Uh, I'm trying to try to break it down.

822

:

So.

823

:

he's.

824

:

Saying.

825

:

that You shouldn't be skeptical.

826

:

You shouldn't be relativistic.

827

:

We Because.

828

:

There are absolute truths, right?

829

:

That's what I'm saying.

830

:

And you said there isn't any saying.

831

:

this is because.

832

:

of what, well, first of all, to make

the claim that there is no absolute

833

:

truth is a self-defeating statement.

834

:

It's self-contradictory right.

835

:

Break that down for me.

836

:

right.

837

:

Well, let me give you an example.

838

:

When I was teaching a class In philosophy.

839

:

We were talking about knowledge And truth.

840

:

the And one of the, one of the guys raised

his hand and says, well, you know what?

841

:

There is no absolute truth.

842

:

And so I stopped and.

843

:

Yeah, I had heard.

844

:

That ID before, obviously.

845

:

So.

846

:

Uh, bill.

847

:

I don't remember if that

was his name or not.

848

:

Do you mean that as a true statement?

849

:

And then Hm.

850

:

great sister at the And his eyes opened

and he looked at me like, Oh man.

851

:

And I was amazed because he had

never heard of that rebuttal before.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

He's making.

854

:

Uh, truth claim that undermines

the ability to make truth claims.

855

:

to He's claiming there is no absolute

truth, but that itself is a truth claim.

856

:

Yeah.

857

:

Yeah.

858

:

And so he was so certain in propagating

this and had never even thought about

859

:

the inherent contradiction within that.

860

:

It's inherently contradictory that

he would say it's absolutely true

861

:

that there are no absolute true.

862

:

Exactly.

863

:

And again, it surprised me because

you know, this goes back to Socrates.

864

:

This.

865

:

Wasn't my argument.

866

:

are I know that's interesting

because you definitely see that.

867

:

that.

868

:

wave.

869

:

in our society, you do.

870

:

this.

871

:

But it's not new.

872

:

No.

873

:

Yeah.

874

:

2,500 years old.

875

:

Exactly.

876

:

the Yeah.

877

:

And a lot of people today will

make the claim that there is.

878

:

no absolute truth or

you can't know things.

879

:

is.

880

:

And yet they haven't really wrestled

through that idea of that self

881

:

contradiction and I, to be honest,

logically, I don't know how you could,

882

:

I don't know how you get past that.

883

:

an app.

884

:

It seems to me self-evident and.

885

:

Socrates and.

886

:

Plato smarter than me.

887

:

They certainly thought that way that.

888

:

I think he would also, he

You are absolutely making a

889

:

self-defeating statement when

you claim there is no truth.

890

:

Hmm.

891

:

so that's Socrates first.

892

:

point.

893

:

that shows this hostility toward the

skepticism or the relativism, right?

894

:

What's what's his other.

895

:

Oh, Basically.

896

:

His other is, Hey.

897

:

Look at the results of

this kind of belief.

898

:

Look at all that undermines

and all that, it does elevates.

899

:

That's what we talked about before.

900

:

call Okay.

901

:

If there is no truth, then truth

is relative to each person.

902

:

I'm saying.

903

:

Purpose morality.

904

:

These are all relative to each person

because, there's nothing beyond us.

905

:

And that Um, then you've

got these contradictory.

906

:

self Opinions.

907

:

that You can adjudicate hundreds revalues

and moral choices that you can't.

908

:

Argue against, or improve upon.

909

:

And.

910

:

Look at this look at

you Sophos yourselves.

911

:

Basically he goes onto this,

you know, is You're charging.

912

:

money so that other people can become

more skillful in self advancement.

913

:

is, that really wisdom?

914

:

is that really what

philosophy is all about?

915

:

Simply making money up people

towards their own agenda.

916

:

Yikes.

917

:

Yeah.

918

:

So he, he lays a new, a pretty good there.

919

:

Wow.

920

:

And that's.

921

:

Yeah, that's interesting.

922

:

as you're talking earlier,

I was thinking this, this is

923

:

definitely a move toward the self.

924

:

no thing.

925

:

Yes.

926

:

It really elevates personal

opinions or thoughts or beliefs.

927

:

selfish.

928

:

Above.

929

:

the values of this society.

930

:

And, it's interesting that Socrates.

931

:

The And played a, we're able to see

that If that's not imbalanced, then

932

:

that can, really wreck a society.

933

:

The Yeah, I'm glad you brought that.

934

:

out because in my final point here,

I think there are at least two things

935

:

that, were very valuable two things

that the Sophos brought that were

936

:

very valuable and that's one of them.

937

:

Yeah.

938

:

So The previous philosophers were

focused more on the, macro instead

939

:

of the microbe in the objective,

rather than the subjective.

940

:

So they're talking about what's the

nature of all reality, you know,

941

:

what's, what's everything made out of.

942

:

And there was very little focus

on what it means to be a human.

943

:

So he knew him.

944

:

Pretty And there was almost no focus

on what it means to be a subject.

945

:

in earliest.

946

:

And so they do balance that out.

947

:

And I think for that, we can be grateful.

948

:

Yeah, I think that those

two things need to be.

949

:

It seems like those two things can be.

950

:

held intention.

951

:

Sure.

952

:

Because If there are objective

truths, which I believe that

953

:

there are, I mean, finally.

954

:

People are approaching those.

955

:

Subjectively, because that's the

only way that they're able to do it.

956

:

So there is there is a relative ism about

the ways that we interact with the world.

957

:

But that doesn't necessarily

have to mean that all truths.

958

:

Especially The big truths.

959

:

Are all relative.

960

:

Exactly.

961

:

So that's, that's neat that

they brought that shift.

962

:

And I think that.

963

:

That can be helpful.

964

:

Yeah.

965

:

to.

966

:

what's the other one.

967

:

resume.

968

:

Well, The other.

969

:

Is that they brought forth.

970

:

And set the stage then for the two

great philosophers, Plato and Aristotle.

971

:

that Hmm.

972

:

bye.

973

:

Making that shift and by.

974

:

Responding to.

975

:

the previous philosophers.

976

:

And by promoting their viewpoint.

977

:

With SIM coherence and skill.

978

:

They set the stage for the great response.

979

:

said And it wasn't just a reputation.

980

:

a So Plato, we talked about

how he refuted that, right.

981

:

you did.

982

:

That's not all we did.

983

:

though.

984

:

all we did.

985

:

What he did was create a

system in which the objective.

986

:

the macro, the ultimate

out there is intertwined.

987

:

Then with the subjective, how

do I live then within this

988

:

universe that I find myself in.

989

:

None of the pre-Socratic

philosophers developed that idea.

990

:

At all.

991

:

And the self has come along and

they talk a lot about what you

992

:

should do, but it's all pragmatic.

993

:

It's not attached to

anything beyond itself.

994

:

Yeah.

995

:

Plato's one who comes along.

996

:

He is the great synthesizer,

not only of the ideas of the

997

:

previous philosophers in general.

998

:

He is that But also this whole dynamic.

999

:

Of this object of reality.

:

00:35:24,985 --> 00:35:26,616

hope has come a long That is true.

:

00:35:27,066 --> 00:35:28,356

It's not just an illusion.

:

00:35:28,386 --> 00:35:28,986

it's there.

:

00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:33,216

on But then to hide the individual

life choices of a person.

:

00:35:33,221 --> 00:35:34,476

comes To that thing.

:

00:35:35,496 --> 00:35:38,376

And without this office, maybe

that wouldn't have happened.

:

00:35:38,646 --> 00:35:38,916

Hmm.

:

00:35:39,666 --> 00:35:39,876

Hmm.

:

00:35:40,176 --> 00:35:44,826

And then Aristotle builds upon Play-Doh

improves upon him in some ways I think.

:

00:35:45,153 --> 00:35:49,173

but certainly Without Pluto, you went

out To the Aristotle that we have now.

:

00:35:49,659 --> 00:35:53,609

And without those two, Western

thought would be much impoverished.

:

00:35:53,909 --> 00:35:54,359

Wow.

:

00:35:55,139 --> 00:35:56,526

That's bold statement.

:

00:35:57,413 --> 00:35:58,446

To Yeah.

:

00:35:58,476 --> 00:35:59,466

So anyway.

:

00:35:59,513 --> 00:35:59,723

window.

:

00:35:59,783 --> 00:36:00,053

Hmm.

:

00:36:00,246 --> 00:36:01,236

That would be my.

:

00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:05,196

Brief take on the Sophos and

obviously there's a lot more.

:

00:36:05,196 --> 00:36:07,326

we could talk about with

each individual Sophos.

:

00:36:07,326 --> 00:36:10,296

but Next we're going

to move on to Socrates.

:

00:36:10,476 --> 00:36:11,076

Sounds great.

:

00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:13,956

Well, thank you for setting the stage

for that and excited to get into

:

00:36:13,986 --> 00:36:16,176

that and played on Aristotle and a.

:

00:36:16,343 --> 00:36:16,613

towns.

:

00:36:16,626 --> 00:36:17,256

This has been fun.

:

00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:17,646

Thanks.

:

00:36:17,856 --> 00:36:18,306

My pleasure.

:

00:36:18,426 --> 00:36:18,726

See ya.

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