Episode 23

The Supposed Rationality of Greek Philosophy (The History of Philosophy, part 3)

In this episode, we delve into the early history of Greek philosophy, focusing on the Milesian school. The discussion covers Thales, Anaximander, and Anaximenes, examining their metaphysical inquiries about the fundamental nature of reality. We also discuss the broader implications of their thinking, such as assumptions about the eternity of matter, the rational comprehensibility of the universe, and the capacity of the human mind to understand it. These foundational ideas are tied to later philosophical developments and contemporary thought.

00:00 Introduction to the Malaysian School of Philosophy

01:08 Thales: The First Philosopher

03:41 Anaximander and the Concept of the Boundless

09:13 Anaximenes: Air as the Fundamental Principle

15:49 Early Greek Philosophers: Common Assumptions and Analysis

19:39 Metaphysics and Ethics: The Foundational Question

20:11 Plato's Creation Story: The Demiurge

21:00 Greek Philosophy: Rational Understanding of Reality

21:55 The Assumption of Rational Reality

22:23 Illustrating Rational Assumptions

27:17 Human Mind's Capability to Understand Reality

30:15 Philosophical Presuppositions and Worldviews

31:56 The Desire for Intellectual Simplicity

36:50 Conclusion: Analyzing Ancient and Modern Thought

Transcript
Speaker:

And we're back.

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We're going to dive back into

the history of philosophy.

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Cool.

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Cool.

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So, Who is up for today?

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You know, I titled this one.

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I might change it before

it actually gets published.

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But for right now It's titled the

Malaysian school and the supposed

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rationality of Greek philosophy.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I'm just doing that to draw

in all the, uh, all the clicks

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and all the views there.

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Yeah.

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I know a lot of us are

searching for Malaysia.

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Malicious malicious.

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I get people all the time, come up

to me and ask me to explain, uh,

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the ablation school philosophy.

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And yes.

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The rationale.

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Irrationality early Greek thought.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Definitely something that's

getting a lot of, searches yeah.

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We're riding that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So malicious, I'm assuming

it's named after a guy.

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No.

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Okay.

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It's named after a city.

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I think my latest, my latest, there it is.

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So people from there call my lesions.

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Okay.

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And it's on what would today

be the Western edge of Turkey.

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But it was a Greek colony.

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So it was a Greek speaking,

Greek thinking colony.

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and it was there the last week

we talked about a man named

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dailies lived and taught.

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And he's regarded usually

as the first philosopher, at

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least in the Western world.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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It's all coming back now.

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All right.

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Yeah, we talked about the Elise.

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And his idea that everything

is water and some of the other

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things that he talked about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Can you give us brief overview?

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Just a little recap of

where we've been with that.

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So, so far we've talked about.

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Pre philosophical thought patterns

that were already in play.

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So people like dailies and the

people we'll talk about today.

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They did not make up these

ideas out of whole cloth.

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They were part of an intellectual

culture and community.

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Just like we all are.

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And so that's going to influence them.

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So the first episode we talked about.

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The irrational elements within

Greek thought, even predating the

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Olympian, religion, but carrying on

all the way through that as well.

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And especially the very, very earliest

things that we know about Greek thinking.

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Was that they viewed.

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reality is something like.

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Existing in this shapeless stream.

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a mother earth type of thing that just, it

produced these things that come to exist.

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People, plants, animals.

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But they all go back into this,

in this endless cycle, as it were.

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And we talked to in the first

episode about why that would be

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viewed as irrational rather than

a rational type of philosophy.

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And it's a continuing impact.

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Now Bally's.

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Because at that with some of that same

background, Because he's focused on

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asking the question or I, when I look

at this reality, What is the one thing?

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So he's presupposing that there is one.

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Cheap thing of which

everything else is of a part.

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And it goes back into that.

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And that one thing was water for him.

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It was.

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Yeah.

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If I remember, and I remember you

saying it wasn't as important that

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that was his answer, but the fact

that he gave an answer was significant

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because he was the first person to.

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Right down or record an answer

at least that we have record of.

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All right.

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And more particularly, because

the answer he gave was not

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based upon received tradition of

religious kind or cultural kind.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But it was the prototype.

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Of his own rational mind.

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And perhaps some degree to observation.

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I mean, Water's all around us.

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We need water to live.

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But at the same time, his

statement all is water goes far

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beyond where you could observe.

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So it's a, metaphysical claim.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So we're of continuing in that

philosophical stream pun intended.

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Yes we are.

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And today we're going to be talking about

the next two thinkers chronologically.

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Right?

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Right.

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So why don't you introduce

us to the next two guys?

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Okay.

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And this is where it gets

a little tricky because.

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they have very similar sounding names

and Neither name really trips off the

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tongue very easily for us at least.

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So the first one is an exa Mander

and the second one is annex

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M and S Anaximander and, and.

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. Yep.

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Okay.

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Can you spell that for people who

actually want to Google these guys?

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Sure.

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And next Amanda is spelled a N a X.

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Aye.

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M a N D E R.

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Okay.

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So INAX.

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Next.

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And then I, and Mander as it were.

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Okay.

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The emphasis is on the second symbol.

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Anaximander.

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And then, And XM minis is a N a X.

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So it starts the same way I am.

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I still have it going.

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And then E N E S.

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And X, M.

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Nice.

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Okay.

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Yeah, it's easy to get them confused.

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I mean, I've read about them for.

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a long time and it's easy to still

get them confused in my mind.

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And probably it's not that big a deal that

we keep them distinct because we're going

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to talk about them kind of holistically.

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After a minute.

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Anyway, we'll talk

about their differences.

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Now the legend is that annex seminar was.

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Uh, student of dailies.

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And then an ex I was a student of Okay.

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yes, an accent.

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Yes, it is

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now that hasn't been

proven, it's a tradition.

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But chronologically, there does seem

to be a flow daily's was a little

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bit older than these other twos.

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And so most people would group them

together and call them the, my lesion

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school because they're all leaving in

my latest around the same time period.

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And they have a good deal in common.

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Like what.

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like they lose, they're all

looking for the one thing that

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everything else was composed out.

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The RK is a Greek word there.

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The primary element.

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For dailies, the RK,

the one thing was water.

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Annex Hemmeter said, no,

that's not going to do.

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He also believed in one essence

of all things, but felt.

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It can be something physical

and finite like water.

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So he said the RK was in Greek.

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The apple wrong.

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The operand.

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What's that mean?

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it means the boundless, the infinite.

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The formless, It's infinite

both in time and space.

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But it can't be identified

with one element like water.

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So like, the cosmos Kinda yeah.

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It's a little bit unclear, but it's it.

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I think he means it more

abstractly than that as well.

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Okay.

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So the cosmos says many things.

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This is one thing underneath all that.

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Okay.

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So the physical elements and even worlds.

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Come in and out of

existence, based upon that.

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Well, it itself is unchanged.

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And I was trying to

think of a good analogy.

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I'm not sure this is a

good one, but it might be.

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So, have you ever seen a stream maybe?

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And it's got a small waterfall to it?

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And they sit and watch the

waterfall for a little bit.

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And you notice bubbles arise on

the surface now and then yeah.

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And the bubble will rise and then.

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It will stay there for a few seconds.

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Flow down stream a little bit and

then disappear back into the stream.

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Yeah.

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From what I gather, he viewed the worlds

and the physical elements of the world.

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Something like that.

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You have this unbounded

indefinite stream as it were.

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And then all the physical elements

and even worlds come out of that for

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awhile and then just all back into it.

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Huh?

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Yeah, it seems like a neat.

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Illustration.

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Oh, thanks.

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Helpful.

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Yeah.

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And then he also had

ideas about the world.

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Now, dailies, the world was like

a disk that's floating on water

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because again, everything's water.

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Yeah.

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But he said no, that won't work because

then what would be holding the water out?

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Right.

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So he viewed the earth as

something like, A drum.

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And we are living on the top of that drum.

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So again, the earth would be flat.

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But it's, not resting on

anything it's equal distance

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from all other possible things.

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Therefore doesn't move because

there's no reason for it to be

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one place as opposed to another.

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Hmm.

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So he's trying to give.

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A rational explanation, not only for the

reality, but also why the world doesn't

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move as he thought it didn't anyway.

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Hmm.

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Yeah, that's interesting.

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Right.

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So in that regard, He's following

up on dailies, but he's also

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kind of pushing back on.

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What would regard as the most.

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Objectionable part of the dailies

that you could identify things

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with one particular element.

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But at the same time, he's in that

same stream of thought as a word

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Patty's hearkening back to a time

that shapeless strain that we talked

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about in the very first episode.

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and again, It's not a rational thing.

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This is not directed towards a

purpose in order towards that.

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So the idea of purposefulness

is not involved here.

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In that, in that world, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Or in reality as a whole oh yeah.

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For the most part, Greeks would

view reality as if it's guided by

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anything simply impersonal fate.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And we'll come back to that idea.

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Okay.

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So that's an AXA Mander.

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Yeah.

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So, what about his,

would you call it what.

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Apprentice or.

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Yeah, that's what he was

supposed to be called.

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Annex seventies.

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Yeah.

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And examinee's.

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So what about anti-Semitism?

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He agreed and disagreed

with an exa Mander.

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He agreed that the RK, that first

principle must be infinite, but disagreed

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that it could not be definitive.

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That it could not be identified

with something that we can

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experience here as it were.

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So he argued that the RK, that

overriding principle is air.

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Hmm.

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So you've got, they lose with water.

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You've got an X seventies

with air and remember.

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In the Greek thought there were

four basic elements, right?

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Earth.

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Air.

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Water fire.

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Okay.

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So you've got two of these guys

already claiming to have those

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that's the most important.

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And then Heraclitus, which we won't

get to today would say it's fire.

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Oh, yeah.

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Huh?

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Yeah.

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As far as I know, none of the Greek

thickers would say everything is earth.

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Because that seems less

changeable than the other things.

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that feels like matter to

me, like that feels like.

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Our perception.

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It's like, everything is matter.

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That's like earth, I guess.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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That's a good thought.

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I hadn't thought of that.

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Well, when you mentioned

the stream and the bubbles.

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When you say you're going

to give an illustration.

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The illustration that popped in my

mind was like, matter where it like

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is one thing, but it comes and goes

in different forms, but I don't know.

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That's just.

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I just my mind.

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I don't know if that's a good.

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Yes, you're not.

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No, I think if it's yeah,

but anyway, so you got earth.

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Air fire and water and, annex seventies.

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Uh, saying it's wind.

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Yes, wind or air or breath.

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Okay.

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Again, the Greek words can

often mean many things in our

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language because we have much.

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Fuller vocabulary as it were.

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Okay, so that's helpful.

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Cause I was thinking

when everything's wind.

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So is he talking like breath?

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You think, yeah, it's actually kind of

vapor or breath may be a better idea than

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just the wind that we see outside of this.

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But from what I can tell, he kind

of goes back and forth between what

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we might say is breath or wind.

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But against pneuma, basically.

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So, okay.

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spirit.

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Yeah, Numa, the Greek word would be that.

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Okay.

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Wind or breath.

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And then also spirit.

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Hmm.

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So he viewed also the earth as a

flat disc, but unlike the Elisa

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said it was floating on water.

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He said it's floating on air.

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Like a Frisbee.

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Huh.

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No, he didn't actually

use the word for his beat.

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But that's pretty good idea.

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and we could see why he

might say everything.

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Is air or that air is the

most fundamental principle.

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I mean, We live only

as long as we breathe.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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So my suggest to someone that airs

a principle of life or breath.

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And many Greek philosophers,

not only here, but elsewhere.

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I felt humans were a literal microcosm.

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A small model of the cosmos as a whole.

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Which is an interesting thought.

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Yeah, I'm not sure where

necessarily that came from.

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But you're going to see it again.

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Can you unpack that a little bit?

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What, what does that mean?

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That in some way, the human

body and the human person.

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Is a microcosm, literally small cosmos

and that what we are is analogist

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to what the cosmos is as a whole.

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So thinking about this as an analogy,

then we are like mostly made up of wind.

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Yeah, I guess he would probably, I'm not

sure if he would make that point or not.

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Huh.

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But it just, just an interesting thought.

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Right.

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And also air is all around us.

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Right?

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And so it seems to be infinite.

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or at least boundless.

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Yeah.

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So it makes it a good candidate

to say, this is the one thing.

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but it does present a challenge.

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How does air turn into things like water

and fire and earth and stone and so long?

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Now.

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They at least tried to give an answer of

how water did that a little bit, but it

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was, it was very sketchy and insufficient.

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. And that seventies does give

a more detailed explanation.

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And it's related to the fact

that wind or breath can change.

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So it can feel heavier than moisture dry.

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It can be condensed.

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Or it could be.

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Thinned out rarefied air.

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Hm.

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No, I don't know how much he knew

this, but if you go to the top of a

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mountain, the air is less dense, right?

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Yeah.

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you have rarefied here.

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So he said that.

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Rarefied air or thin air becomes,

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Becomes lighter and warmer until

it eventually becomes fire.

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Hmm.

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. And then when it's condensed, when

it becomes compressed, as it were.

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Then it becomes heavier and colder.

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And becomes cloud than

water, ice stone and earth.

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So interesting theory there.

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Yeah.

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I can see how he could get there.

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Yeah.

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if you think about it, that it

does seem like air turns into

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water in the clouds somehow.

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And then also fire being made up of air.

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Like I can see how that fundamentally.

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Works, I guess.

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Right.

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Yeah, little less obvious how it

becomes a stone or mud or something.

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Right.

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But also it works with, water too.

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that water becomes solid or becomes gas.

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Right.

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Yeah, I think we talked about that last

episode when we talked about dailies.

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Yeah.

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Can I, it can be interesting how fire.

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And.

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Earth work.

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But yeah.

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Oh, well, again, what's a port

in here is not whether he was

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right or not spoiler alert.

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He was not.

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Okay.

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Uh, it wasn't the answers he gave.

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But rather how he answered it.

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It wasn't an appeal to myth or

tradition or religious dogma.

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It was through human reasoning,

observing the world around you.

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And make an inference is

based upon that alone.

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So those are the most

salient points for those two.

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So they've got dailies.

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Everything is water.

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The Arcon is water.

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you've got an AXA Mander..

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the one is this shapeless Unbound thing.

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And then you've got annex emanates.

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The one is the air and everything

changes into to, and out of that.

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And that's where these guys were going.

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So for the most part, They

were dealing with metaphysics.

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they're not going to deal

with ethics or epistemology.

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Yeah.

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So the first loss was our

metaphysicians well, the,

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epistemological claim seems to be that.

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They're going to be trying to use their

own minds apart from what you said,

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that's actually where we're going to.

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Okay.

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So they weren't necessarily

self-reflective about that, but that

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certainly doesn't mean that their ideas

don't have bistable logical applications.

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Right, right.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah, so maybe let's get

some initial analysis here.

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We're only three philosophers into this.

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Maybe it's too soon to give

an analysis, but at the same

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time, It lays the groundwork for

understanding how to evaluate the

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other philosophers who were going to

come along, down the pike as it were.

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Yeah.

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Makes sense.

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So as we talked about.

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These philosophers are not important

because of their answers, but

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because of their questions and the

way the answer to those questions.

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They were concerned with

metaphysics matches physics.

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And what I mean by that, they weren't

just concerned with understanding how

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the world works in up so that you get

a better crop or you can navigate the

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seas better or something like that.

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They wanted to know for

knowledge, sake alone.

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And they want to know, not just

things of this world, but also

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more transcended questions.

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What is the ultimate nature of reality.

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So that's the difference

between a physical question?

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science, chemistry, physics,

something like that.

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Why does this do this?

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You know, why does this

dissolve here, but not here.

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Those are physical questions, but they're

asking about a physical things that

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are above and beyond that as it were.

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And that's why their usual regard

is a first of philosophers.

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And then second, the answers they

gave again, we've talked about this.

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Our answers based upon human reasoning,

interacting with human observation.

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And that is a break for the most

part, from what we've seen most of

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the wisdom teachers of the past.

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Uh, what they were doing.

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So those are two things now.

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I do want to mention though, here.

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And this is where.

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we're going to get some analysis

that might seem premature,

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but, but I don't think so.

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I think it's going to be helpful.

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There are at least three things

that these philosophers other,

455

:

my lesion schools believed.

456

:

That they could not prove.

457

:

And these same things

are going to be assumed.

458

:

They're going to be presuppositions

for almost all the Greek philosophers.

459

:

Entity Most non-religious

philosophers even today.

460

:

Oh, okay.

461

:

So this is going to be very important

that they're building on this validation.

462

:

So it's almost like they

had this project here.

463

:

Of understanding the world

through human reasoning.

464

:

And they're the ones

starting this project.

465

:

They're building this foundation

other going to build upon it, but

466

:

let's examine this foundation first.

467

:

Okay.

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

What are the three?

470

:

Well first.

471

:

They assumed the eternity

of matter or the RK.

472

:

That first principle.

473

:

And exhibitor is the

possible exception to this.

474

:

Since it's not clear to

what degree he was say that.

475

:

The APA Ron, as he called it his material,

but at the same time, he is not coming

476

:

to the idea that it had a beginning.

477

:

That it was a creative thing.

478

:

He seemed to view it

as eternal there's no.

479

:

Creator created distinction.

480

:

Within any of this.

481

:

Matter of whatever kind

that you view Is eternal.

482

:

and the reason that's important is

because The fundamental difference here.

483

:

Between that and Hebrew or

Christian or Islamic thought.

484

:

is this, that those latter three

Arguably based upon this idea that

485

:

there is a fundamental distinction

between creator and creation.

486

:

And that you can't understand creation

without understanding also the creator Or

487

:

earliest understand that it is created.

488

:

So these men and Greek philosophy

as a whole that are going to assume.

489

:

That there is no creation, but that

matter, however, they're going to do fine.

490

:

It is eternal.

491

:

He didn't begin to exist.

492

:

Yeah, I know we've talked a lot

about that in past episodes.

493

:

Like that is a huge,

fundamental difference.

494

:

it really makes all the difference.

495

:

It.

496

:

And I hope we can sketch that out a bit.

497

:

Yeah.

498

:

Yeah, for sure.

499

:

I mean, it makes sense that The

question of metaphysics comes first

500

:

before the question of ethics.

501

:

Yes.

502

:

Because if you have a creator,

who's creating things in his image.

503

:

And ethics come from the

character of that created being.

504

:

That's a completely different foundation.

505

:

And you know, if your

foundation is uh, ethical.

506

:

I don't know.

507

:

What's what's the word?

508

:

They're not just not ethical.

509

:

object like water, wind.

510

:

Okay.

511

:

You see what I'm saying?

512

:

Sure.

513

:

Yeah, not purposeful.

514

:

Ultimate reality.

515

:

No purpose or no.

516

:

Yeah.

517

:

Right.

518

:

And really I don't think I'm overstated

when I'm saying that pretty much all Greek

519

:

philosophy is going to view it this way.

520

:

For example, Plato.

521

:

Well, he has an idea of

creation or a story of creation.

522

:

But it's fundamentally different than

the Christian or the Jewish or Islamic

523

:

story, because what happens there?

524

:

Is that some spiritual being he calls

the Demi urge takes pre-existing matter.

525

:

That's already eternal.

526

:

And then begins to form that.

527

:

So he doesn't create that.

528

:

He just fashions that it's already there.

529

:

So even he who has, what many

people call a creation story.

530

:

It's not really a creation story.

531

:

It's a fashioning or.

532

:

Uh, forming story at best.

533

:

So anyway, that's the first thing.

534

:

So first, first one is that they

all assume that, that eternity, if.

535

:

Matter.

536

:

However they define that.

537

:

Yes.

538

:

Okay, so what's the second one.

539

:

All right.

540

:

The second is that they believe.

541

:

Reality is able to be rationally.

542

:

Understood.

543

:

So this is kind of the epistemological.

544

:

Yeah.

545

:

Undergirding.

546

:

Right.

547

:

So they're going to assume this

and aren't going to argue it.

548

:

I said that they didn't argue and they

don't, but that doesn't mean they're

549

:

not making a pistol logical assumptions.

550

:

So are they intentionally trying to

not incorporate religious dogmas or.

551

:

Cultural myths that

they have from the time.

552

:

Well, it seems to, I mean, we

don't have a clear statement of

553

:

their intentions for the most part.

554

:

So read between the lines

of what they're doing.

555

:

They're there.

556

:

Strike it out on a very

different direction.

557

:

Okay.

558

:

Now.

559

:

It's not clear that they had any

idea of the Hebrew scriptures.

560

:

or the ideas of a creator.

561

:

Creation distinction.

562

:

So it's not like we can accuse them of

understanding that and rejecting that.

563

:

Right, right.

564

:

But anyway, going back to this idea.

565

:

They believe realities

is able to be rationally.

566

:

Understood.

567

:

If it's not, then there's no point

in anything that they're doing right.

568

:

So the whole premise is based

upon this idea that reality.

569

:

Is understandable.

570

:

That's rationally.

571

:

Understandable.

572

:

It conforms to the laws that

we will say are rational.

573

:

And.

574

:

Able to be understood and communicated.

575

:

And I was trying to think of

a good way to illustrate this.

576

:

So.

577

:

You know, Spanish pretty well, but

they use the same letters as English.

578

:

Right.

579

:

I remember when I was generally speaking.

580

:

Okay.

581

:

I remember when I was

learning Greek or Hebrew.

582

:

The letters are very different,

especially in Hebrew.

583

:

All of them are different.

584

:

And even to write them takes practice.

585

:

And so I remember many times I.

586

:

fill up a page or two,

just practicing writing.

587

:

Different letters.

588

:

Okay, I'm going to write

this up for awhile cam tire.

589

:

Ready?

590

:

That.

591

:

We were at this one.

592

:

Now.

593

:

Imagine someone.

594

:

From another time or place

or culture or whatever.

595

:

they discover one of these.

596

:

pages that I was writing And They

look at this and they're, they're make

597

:

gonna make the assumption that there

is some message here that whoever

598

:

wrote this is communicated to them.

599

:

But at that, they're

going to be an air, right.

600

:

Because I'm writing things, but I'm

not writing sedatives ideas, rational

601

:

thoughts, things that could be understood.

602

:

All arm writing our markings as it were.

603

:

Or say that you grew up.

604

:

In a society that had no.

605

:

History with written music at all.

606

:

So no music notation, no music theory.

607

:

And there's a shipwreck and on the shore.

608

:

a score for an instrumental music

piece comes up, you know, box fifth

609

:

symphony or something like that.

610

:

All right now, all of a sudden

you've got on this piece of

611

:

paper, all these markings.

612

:

you have to determine.

613

:

If those markings have a meaning or not.

614

:

Or could someone just be simply

be practicing markings for some

615

:

reason, like I would be practicing

writing down those Hebrew letters.

616

:

What all these thinkers are assuming.

617

:

They're presupposition that is unproven.

618

:

Is that reality Can be.

619

:

Understood intellectually rationally.

620

:

But you can't prove that.

621

:

You can only assume it.

622

:

So is the, illustration

of the musical score?

623

:

the people.

624

:

Find that, and then they just presume.

625

:

That somebody is trying

to communicate something.

626

:

Yes, the presumption or

that it could be understood.

627

:

in a rational way.

628

:

Okay.

629

:

, so the analogy is that.

630

:

The Greek thinkers look around these

guys look around and presume that it

631

:

can be understood in a rational way.

632

:

Yes.

633

:

Okay.

634

:

think of another analogy.

635

:

Cause none of these are perfect, you've

got a one-year-old at home, right?

636

:

Yeah.

637

:

Imagine that.

638

:

You leave your laptop open.

639

:

Peter comes up to at one day.

640

:

you've got your Google docs open, right.

641

:

And maybe it's some document that

you're sharing with me or somebody else.

642

:

And Peter comes up to it and

starts tapping on the keyboard.

643

:

Okay.

644

:

He's he's just barely one.

645

:

He doesn't understand words, languages,

letters, or anything like that.

646

:

All he knows is this is what daddy does.

647

:

He comes over here and he

presses all these buttons.

648

:

So he does that.

649

:

And then I get that because you've

already included me in the document.

650

:

As someone who has viewing or editing

rights and I'm like, wait a second.

651

:

What's Nathan trying to tell me

with this, what's it communicating?

652

:

So I'm making the assumption that.

653

:

What I've seen is able to

be rationally understood.

654

:

Without knowing that that's the case.

655

:

That's a presupposition on my behalf.

656

:

Okay.

657

:

Yeah, makes sense.

658

:

and that's fair.

659

:

I mean, we, believe that too.

660

:

Sure.

661

:

Um, We believe it as believers, because

we believe in the creator creation

662

:

distinction that this universe is here

as a purposeful and rational creation,

663

:

a rational act from a rational being.

664

:

Uh, mind the spirit, a person.

665

:

Okay.

666

:

But if you disregard that.

667

:

Then are we sure?

668

:

That rationality.

669

:

Logic, even the laws of physics apply

at all times all times past and present

670

:

all places within this universe or

outside of this universe, that there

671

:

would be an outside this universe.

672

:

in other words, for the most

part, we're making the assumption.

673

:

Reality Can be understood.

674

:

But we can't necessarily prove

that on the basis of simply saying,

675

:

well, reality is just water.

676

:

Or reality's just air.

677

:

Yeah, this is, I can definitely

see how some of our discussions

678

:

about naturalism or materialism.

679

:

built on this foundation?

680

:

I remember you reading a Steven

Pinker's book, quoting it and.

681

:

him saying the mind isn't

designed to find purpose.

682

:

Or make any sort of metaphysical claims.

683

:

And yet in that book, he was

making metaphysical claims.

684

:

So, he's assuming about himself

that he's able to do that, but

685

:

if his own mind is a product of.

686

:

You know, Water or.

687

:

Matter or wind or whatever it is.

688

:

You kind of have to back that claim up.

689

:

Yeah.

690

:

Yeah, you have to see if it's consistent

with the other things you're teaching.

691

:

Right.

692

:

Right.

693

:

So that's, really interesting to

me that they, would presume that

694

:

reality is able to be rationally.

695

:

Understood.

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

And it seems like most people do.

698

:

Yes, we do.

699

:

But that's what philosophy is for has

asked that question instead of presume it.

700

:

Yeah.

701

:

So, yeah.

702

:

And ask him what basis.

703

:

You would make that claim.

704

:

All right.

705

:

The last part kind of goes along

with this, but it's, different.

706

:

And in fact, I think this

is probably more important.

707

:

there making the assumption as many

non-religious philosophers do today.

708

:

That.

709

:

not only is reality able to be rationally.

710

:

Understood.

711

:

But the human mind is able

to understand it without aid.

712

:

That it is a sufficient instrument.

713

:

In itself.

714

:

To be able to actually understand.

715

:

what the truth about reality is.

716

:

And that's a different claim.

717

:

So one is about the nature reality.

718

:

The other is about the

nature of the human mind.

719

:

Can the human mind actually understand.

720

:

Anything metaphysical.

721

:

They all believed the human mind is

able to understand reality without aid.

722

:

They believe autonomous human

reasoning is a tool sufficient

723

:

to the job of understanding

the truth about that reality.

724

:

So you mean without aid as in

like without divine revelation?

725

:

Yes.

726

:

Okay.

727

:

That's exactly what I mean.

728

:

Yeah.

729

:

Yeah.

730

:

So you and I, we believe that we can

have competence that the human mind

731

:

can know truth because we presume

we book at the presupposition.

732

:

Whether we can prove it or not.

733

:

It's another question, but

it's consistent with this.

734

:

That we are created in the image and

likeness of God who is irrational beam.

735

:

And who created this world rationally.

736

:

Because it's a product of itself.

737

:

There is an internal

consistency with our worldview.

738

:

Right.

739

:

But if you reject that.

740

:

If my mind is simply water or air

or molecules in motion or Adams.

741

:

Or simply something else that I've

maybe I don't define necessarily.

742

:

But it's only the product

and natural selection alone.

743

:

Create a true increase by.

744

:

Gene's chances of surviving

to the next generation and

745

:

reproducing to the next generation.

746

:

Then can I really have competence

that it can understand?

747

:

truth, about things like this.

748

:

So they're making that, presupposition.

749

:

Yeah.

750

:

one of the ways to think about this

is, I have a pair of binoculars.

751

:

And there are a great

instrument for some things.

752

:

Like if I'm out on a sunny day and

there's a bird across the field,

753

:

they're pretty good for that.

754

:

Yeah.

755

:

You know what?

756

:

They're not good for what they're

not good for seeing in the dark.

757

:

Because there's simply not the right tool.

758

:

So there are things that I could see in

the dark if I had night vision goggles,

759

:

but I can't with a pair of binoculars.

760

:

They're not a good tool per seeing a

far-flung nebuli or something like that.

761

:

Right.

762

:

simply because they're

not powerful enough.

763

:

it's not that they're a bad tool,

but the tool is not sufficient

764

:

for those types of jobs.

765

:

The human mind may be a good tool.

766

:

To understand how to get a

better crop yield for next year.

767

:

Or understand how to make

a map of the coastline.

768

:

But it's a presumption to believe.

769

:

They could also understand the very

fundamental natures of reality.

770

:

Oh, which it itself is a part of.

771

:

That is a presumption.

772

:

That is a presupposition.

773

:

That you cannot approve.

774

:

Yeah, it's interesting that.

775

:

Most philosophies have

certain presumptions.

776

:

I think they all do like you can't,

you can't really get away from that.

777

:

And.

778

:

You can't start from.

779

:

You can't start XD Hilo.

780

:

No.

781

:

My opinion is that every worldview.

782

:

Has its presuppositions.

783

:

That cannot necessarily be proven.

784

:

what you can do.

785

:

To adjudicate between them.

786

:

Though is to look at

what the worldview is.

787

:

And then ask.

788

:

Okay.

789

:

Based upon its presuppositions

is the rest of it.

790

:

Coherent with that.

791

:

Because it fit in together.

792

:

Is it coherent with the reality we see

is itself consistent and is a livable.

793

:

So there are tests for

worldviews, but I believe.

794

:

Each one has certain presuppositions.

795

:

That go beyond proof as it were.

796

:

Yeah, it's, been really interesting

to look at the history of this

797

:

because you see that even this

early on, and it's really neat

798

:

to see the way that these guys.

799

:

had some fundamental ideas that

people are still building on today.

800

:

Yeah, I think those three ideas.

801

:

the matter is eternal.

802

:

That reality can be understood

or is understandable.

803

:

And third that the human mind is the

tool to be able to understand it.

804

:

Are still very much with us.

805

:

And I'm not saying they're wrong.

806

:

I'm just saying that once you reject

God, You cannot prove any of those.

807

:

And they actually seem a little bit

inconsistent in some ways with most of

808

:

the worldviews that arise out of the.

809

:

Hmm.

810

:

Or reject, at least the

kind of God described by.

811

:

Hebrew.

812

:

Thought yes.

813

:

Theism, basically Hebrew

Kris Jenner, Islamic thought.

814

:

Yeah.

815

:

I have a question.

816

:

one thing I'm noticing is that

all these guys are trying to boil.

817

:

Reality down to one thing.

818

:

Y just one thing, why not

two things or five things?

819

:

That's a good question.

820

:

I'm not sure.

821

:

I'm smart enough to have a take on that.

822

:

So take it with a grain of salt,

but since you asked my opinion,

823

:

I'll I'll give it a shot.

824

:

Sure.

825

:

Part of it is there is

within us a desire for.

826

:

Intellectual simplicity.

827

:

And boiling everything down to one thing

is maybe the ultimate expression of that.

828

:

also along with that,

There is this idea that.

829

:

There has to be something to

tie everything else together.

830

:

Because if there weren't,

then there would not be.

831

:

This coherent.

832

:

Cosmos as it were.

833

:

we might have.

834

:

All kinds of.

835

:

Elements or things that exist,

but are not tied together in this.

836

:

Beautiful.

837

:

Cosmos that, has this wonderful

principles of design and interaction.

838

:

Hmm.

839

:

And then.

840

:

Maybe.

841

:

There is a part of us.

842

:

that.

843

:

Subconsciously at least.

844

:

Wants to be able to say there

is one thing of ultimate value.

845

:

Hm.

846

:

Now, I don't know about that.

847

:

But I'm just supposing.

848

:

And to some people.

849

:

Of a philosophical bent of

mind that can be in idea.

850

:

So that'd be my best take at it.

851

:

I think that's a very good

question because you do see that.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

I mean, even now, the, say, God, Or

it seems like there's always a desire.

854

:

I wonder if there's.

855

:

The other, subconscious thing is we want.

856

:

To be United.

857

:

Yeah, we want to be United.

858

:

It was, we want to be a part of

something bigger than ourselves and even.

859

:

Ultimately.

860

:

Yeah, that might be the case.

861

:

Huh.

862

:

Anyway.

863

:

it's just something I noticed.

864

:

I mean, it's like, okay, you've

got earth, wind water, and fire.

865

:

Like, that's pretty good.

866

:

why can't you just have four?

867

:

Why did these guys have to split hairs?

868

:

Because.

869

:

Does it seem like they

have to be in competition.

870

:

No, but there does seem

to be that ongoing desire.

871

:

I mean, Eastern thought is modernistic.

872

:

Believe it in one thing, usually,

one element of reality as it were,

873

:

and then ancient Greek, the earliest

Greek thought that we talked about.

874

:

I guess you would call that monistic.

875

:

You abused the shapeless

stream as the one thing.

876

:

Everything else arises out of

that and goes back into that.

877

:

So it has a very long

and widespread pedigree.

878

:

This idea of Mona's and then all is one.

879

:

So we broke it down into the

four worldviews of theism.

880

:

Pantheism polytheism and naturalism.

881

:

It sounds like.

882

:

Polytheism when you dig

down, down, down, down, down.

883

:

It emerges from, Monistic

thought just like pantheism does.

884

:

I think that's Pretty good observation.

885

:

And there's so many different

kinds of policy as it may be.

886

:

It's a broad statement, right?

887

:

But I think you're onto something

there, but, but naturalism

888

:

is also going to do it.

889

:

You can just say matter.

890

:

Ultimately, and then mass.

891

:

God, or which sometimes takes a form

of energy to do an interchangeable.

892

:

I don't think that the is, um,

would be classified as Right.

893

:

I also don't think though, that

it's dualistic in the, in the

894

:

classical sense of that term.

895

:

It seems almost to me to go beyond that.

896

:

It does believe that there

is one ultimate reality.

897

:

That is God.

898

:

But at the same time, there is

also a very real university.

899

:

He makes.

900

:

And the one it's subservient to the other.

901

:

So God can exist without the

physical cosmos, but not vice versa.

902

:

But at the same time, the fix

physical cosmos is still real.

903

:

It's not simply an idea.

904

:

It's a real thing.

905

:

it has a different.

906

:

Status in reality as it were.

907

:

So it's not, it's not dualism.

908

:

It's not.

909

:

Monism Kind of transcends

that distinction almost.

910

:

Yeah.

911

:

It just makes sense to me that these

guys who are just absolutely brilliant.

912

:

Wood.

913

:

Come to a monistic understanding of

reality without any divine revelation.

914

:

That just seems really.

915

:

It just, it makes sense to me.

916

:

Like, yeah.

917

:

There does have to be.

918

:

One thing.

919

:

I don't know if I'm articulating that

well, but it seems, it seems certainly.

920

:

Reasonable.

921

:

If you're trying to think

deeply about what is without

922

:

any sort of divine revelation.

923

:

Yeah.

924

:

There seems to be within the human mind.

925

:

at least for many people who

think deeply about these issues.

926

:

A desire to bring it all

under some idea at oneness.

927

:

Yeah, that is a perpetual thing.

928

:

And so if that's true, it's

probably from our viewpoint.

929

:

God given.

930

:

Even if the way that works

out, maybe it's not fully true.

931

:

Yeah.

932

:

Hmm.

933

:

Thanks for entertaining that.

934

:

For what it's worth.

935

:

That's a pretty good digression there.

936

:

Well, that's good.

937

:

Yeah.

938

:

thanks for this next episode about,

And acts Amanda and examinee's.

939

:

It's good.

940

:

and I appreciate your analysis of.

941

:

their perspective.

942

:

Yeah, well, thanks.

943

:

I appreciate that.

944

:

and that's what I'm going to try to do.

945

:

I mean, we could talk

more about each of their.

946

:

Individual ideas, but I'm trying to give.

947

:

an understanding of the main idea

there thought, especially as it

948

:

might impact current ideas or

things that would come along later.

949

:

And then Analyze that and see how it

all fits in so that we can understand

950

:

the present a little bit better.

951

:

Yeah.

952

:

And it, it certainly is helpful having

the background of our discussions

953

:

on the four worldviews because.

954

:

I'm sitting here making all kinds of

connections between what they're thinking.

955

:

And discussions that we've had

in the past about Mona ism or,

956

:

theism or that kind of thing.

957

:

Already understanding the ideas of

metaphysics and epistemology and ethics

958

:

and all that stuff is just really helpful.

959

:

It helps us look at.

960

:

what they're talking about

and try to see again, if it's

961

:

internally coherent, if it's.

962

:

consistent and if it's livable yeah.

963

:

So, yeah.

964

:

Well, I appreciate that.

965

:

Cool.

966

:

Well, thanks.

967

:

My pleasure.

968

:

I'll see you next time.

969

:

See ya.

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