Episode 18

What the Universe says about God's Existence

Can we prove God's existence by the fact or features of the universe? To tackle this issue we will discuss:

  1. The difference between proofs and signs
  2. The meaning of the cosmological argument, and its various forms
  3. The meaning of the argument from design (also known as the teleological argument)
  4. The resurrection of the argument from design in the last 50 years
  5. The curious case of Anthony Flew
Transcript
Speaker:

Do they, what kind of follow up

on some of the themes we've talked

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about in the last few weeks?

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we've talked about the relationship

between God and the universe.

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we've talked about the eternity of

God that he is outside the universe of

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the includes time, things like that.

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So today I was thinking.

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Why don't we talk about.

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What the universe tells us about God.

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Yeah.

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So what the universe can say about

Goodwill, what we can learn about God

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from observing the universe around us.

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That maybe what we can't know

about God through that way.

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Yeah, that sounds great.

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So we're kind of in the

realm of natural theology.

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In a sense.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we should probably

define that, right?

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Yeah.

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Good.

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Good call.

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No, you go ahead.

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Natural theology.

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What we can understand about God from the

natural world is that a yeah, that's not

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bad or trying to build a theology for.

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Okay.

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What we can know in the natural war

world, So we're talking not about,

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divine revelation or scripture.

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We're talking about when I, walk

outside through the park, what does my.

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stroll through the park.

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Tell me maybe about the nature of God.

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In our notes, I put down

a quote from Thomas Paine.

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And he's a big advocate of

this explains it pretty well.

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You want to go ahead and read that?

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Yeah, let me read it.

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. This is from Thomas Paine.

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He's writing in 1776.

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He says the word of God.

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Is the creation.

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We be hold.

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And this word of God, reveal it to man.

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All that is necessary for

man to know of his creator.

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Do we want to contemplate his power?

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We see it in the

immensity of his creation.

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Do we want to contemplate his wisdom?

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We see it in the unchangeable

order, by which the

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incomprehensible whole is governed.

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. Do we want to contemplate his

munificence We see it in the abundance

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with which he fills the earth.

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Do we want to contemplate his mercy?

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We see it in his not withholding that

abundance, even from the unthankful.

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Do we want to contemplate his

will so far as it respects, man.

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The goodness he shows to all is a

lesson for our conduct to each other.

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In fine.

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Do we want to know what God is?

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Search, not the book called the scripture.

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Which any human hand might make.

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Or any imposter invent?

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But the scripture called the creation.

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All right.

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that's one way of thinking about

what the universe reveals about.

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God.

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I think the more standard

Christian way though, is to look

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at the creation of the world.

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Or to look at the world itself and

to see proofs of God's existence.

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So we're going to tackle kind of

all of that in this little episode.

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Yeah, that sounds great.

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Cool.

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Yeah.

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so first things first.

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Are there any scriptures that

would talk about the universe

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pointing to the knowledge of God?

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Yeah, there are, let me take one

from the old Testament and one from

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the new or one from the Hebrew Bible

and one from the Christian Bible.

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First is Psalm 19.

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The heavens reveal the glory of God

and the skies proclaim his handiwork.

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that's an interesting concept in

this, of course, isn't the only place.

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That the heavens or the skies proclaim.

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The glory of God.

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The Hebrew word is Kubota for glory.

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And has the idea of.

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Heaviness.

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Well, renown majesty.

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And all these says are

seen by what God has made.

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So that kind of goes back to Thomas Paine,

who says you want to contemplate as power.

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See it in the immensity of his creation?

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Yes.

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so David's, agreeing with that.

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You can look to the

skies that makes sense.

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My goodness, seeing

all the stars at night.

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Sure.

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Yeah, we may not agree with all the Thomas

Payne has to say about the rest of that.

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Sure, sure.

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We can agree with part of that.

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The second passage is

Romans one 18 through 20.

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Do you want to read that?

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Yeah, it says for God's wrath

is revealed from heaven.

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Against all godlessness

and unrighteous ness.

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Or people.

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Who by their unrighteousness

suppress the truth.

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Since what, can be known about

God is evident among them.

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Because God has shown it to them.

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For his invisible attributes.

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That is his eternal power and

divine nature have been clearly seen

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since the creation of the world.

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Being understood.

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Through what he has made.

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All right.

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So these two verses together.

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The claim that we can't have

some sort of knowledge about

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God through what God has made.

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The creation that we see.

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John Calvin talked about the

two books of God, the book of

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scripture and the book of nature.

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Same idea.

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Hmm.

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And so Paul, he claims that

God's invisible attributes

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are L least his power.

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And nature are somehow seen or inferred

from the universe that we see around us.

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But we want to go a little bit deeper.

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We want to ask about the nature of this

knowledge and in particular, can we prove

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God's existence or anything about God?

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From the fact of the universe.

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It sounds like the main

word there is prove.

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Yeah, and I'd love to delve into the

discussion between proofs and signs when

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it comes to arguments for God's existence.

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So what do you make of that difference

between like a proof and a sign?

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Yeah, I think that's very

important difference.

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And approve as I'm using it here.

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Simply means.

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Uh, logical arguments so compelling

that it forces you to agree with it.

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So.

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an argument that if you hear it and

understand it, You have to agree with it

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unless you're just acting on bad faith.

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it's like what you would hear kind

of in a debate or like a logical

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syllogism or that kind of thing.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So that's not a sign.

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So how are you?

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understanding sign then?

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Uh, sign as I'm defining it any way

is simply a pointer it's not approved.

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It's not designed to compel.

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Intellectual agreement is designed

to make you look and think.

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About what is pointing at

or what is talking about?

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And maybe a very basic example

of this would be a road sign.

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And informational sign on the road.

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So you're driving down the interstate.

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You need gas.

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And you see a sign that

says gas next exit.

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No.

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Does that get proved that

there's gas at the next exit?

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That's true, I guess not, no.

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Why not.

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I mean, they, they

could have shut down or.

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Um, yeah.

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You know, pumps out of service or right.

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So, yeah, the sign could be outdated.

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Do you speak aspects from there?

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There was it now?

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the science mistaken, maybe

the people who put the sign up.

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we're supposed to put up the next exit.

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Yes.

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True.

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It's conceivable not likely.

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Or again, not conceivable,

but it's certainly possible.

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The sign is a lie, so, and put

it up as a prank or a joke.

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Again, that's not probable,

but it's logically conceivable.

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Yeah.

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Therefore the site doesn't prove were gas.

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Is there.

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Rather it's simply a pointer

to help guide you there.

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It's, it's working in a different

way than a logical proof.

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And that's what I think.

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Can help us understand what the scriptures

mean when it talks about creation,

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showing the nature of God to some degree.

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Yeah, so.

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It sounds like in a sign there's.

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Not really so much in the

example you gave, but.

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There is, area for interpretation.

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Yes.

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So, so Thomas Paine is saying that

you can, understand something about

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God from going and looking at his

creation, but somebody else could

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go look at the same creation.

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And come to a different interpretation.

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Yeah.

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And they sure.

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How, how would they, yeah.

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Yeah.

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The various various interpretations.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So with that background,

I'm going to talk about.

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Two groups of arguments

that have often been used.

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To prove God's existence.

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The cosmological type of arguments.

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And The teleological or

the arguments from design.

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Okay.

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Which one you want to take first?

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Let's take cosmological arguments here.

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Sweet.

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Can you maybe give us a cosmological

argument, maybe in the form of a syllogism

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first, and then we can kind of unpack it.

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Yes, but there are many

different cosmological arguments.

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Okay.

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So they're going to have

some, things in common.

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And what they will have in common.

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What makes them a cosmological argument?

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Is that they're going to

be arguing from the fact.

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Of the cosmos existing or the fact

that some aspect of the cosmos exists.

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Cosmos just being here.

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The word for the whole

shebang, the whole universe.

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Reality as we experience it as it were.

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Okay.

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so let me give you an example

of these and then we can.

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And then we can, uh, put

in a soldiers if we want.

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So these go back a long way.

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Like how far are we talking?

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Well, before play to even Plato

develop them, but oh, wow.

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Really?

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It was Aristotle who developed these,

to the most sophisticated degree,

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at least in the ancient world.

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So you're talking to you three,

four or 500 years before Christ.

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These were already.

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Floating around the Greek

universe as it were.

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So that maybe influenced Paul's thinking.

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Do you think in writing

that in Romans one?

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I don't know.

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I wouldn't say that because again,

Paul, I think was more influenced

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by the old Testament thought.

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Okay.

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Which word is saw was kind of prevalent.

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Sure, sure.

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He did know some Greek writing, at least.

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So maybe.

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Who knows, but it certainly

influence Thomas Aquinas.

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Who developed the five arguments

for God's existence of the PRI

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proofs for God's existence.

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Any, he modeled them almost

exactly on Aristotle.

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So he gives a little bit of a Christian.

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Interpretation or twist to them.

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But there's a direct line from.

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Aristotle to.

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Islamic theologians to, Thomas

Aquinas, developing these

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arguments for God's existence.

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Okay.

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And Thomas Aquinas is coming

about:

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Paul.

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Yes.

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At least, and then a lot more after.

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Plato and Aristotle.

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But you remember Thomas Aquinas's goal

was really to synthesize Christian

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theology with Aristotelian philosophy.

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So it kind of makes sense then that

he's going to develop this idea.

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Okay.

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That makes sense.

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So back to the point that

cosmological arguments.

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I'm not going to give all of these.

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I just want to get one, two examples.

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So a cosmological argument.

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It says that God's existence is

inferred from one of the following.

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And these are going to overlap causation.

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Explanation change motion.

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Contingency dependency.

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I find a tude.

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Here's one that Aristotle would use then.

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Okay.

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motion and change exist.

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So that'd be your first premise.

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Okay.

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I can grant that.

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Okay.

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Premise to everything that

moves is moved by something.

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Else beyond itself.

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Okay.

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therefore you had the first

conclusion there is there for.

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either in infinite chain of movement

or there is an unmoved mover.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah, this, this sounds a little familiar.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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but then he would argue in independent

chain of movement is impossible.

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Therefore there is an unmoved mover.

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Ah, okay.

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So that, would be an example.

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Have a.

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Cosmological argument as

developed by Aristotle.

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Now Aquinas arguments.

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The first four of these

would all be cosmological.

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The last one would be more.

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Teleological or an argument from

design will come to that in a minute.

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Okay.

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And the first three of these,

he argues from motion from

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causation, from contingency.

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And then the fourth is from gradations

of bean and that one's a little bit more.

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Abstract the idea being there that.

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They're sort of purlative

levels of everything.

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So you have a wise person and

then a wiser person, and then

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the wisest person possible.

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That would be God, you have, you

know, some things are bright,

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some things are brighter.

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So that argument is fourth.

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One.

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From gradation implies, there has to be

some absolute standard that everything

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else kind of is a gradation from.

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Okay.

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So, I guess you would call that

a cosmological argument, but the

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other three are more classically.

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called that.

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So he has one for motion.

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he drew from Aristotle's observation

that each thing in the universe

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moves or is moved by something else.

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And so he, picked up on this.

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And he basically recapitulated

his argument that there has to

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be a moved mover as it were.

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the second.

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Is the argument from causation.

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So he builds upon Aristotle's notion

of inefficient cause the entity

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or event responsible for a change.

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In a particular thing.

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So.

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There's a series of causes for everything.

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But every efficient cause must

itself have an efficient cause.

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because there cannot be an

infinite chain of efficient causes.

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So you can't have an

infinite chain of causes.

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There had to be one to start.

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Imagine.

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All actions that we experienced

or everything that we see occur.

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Everything that happens.

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Is like dominoes tipping over each other.

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So got a string of dominoes and

sometimes one of that string wool.

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Diverge off into two different

chains as it were, but, but

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those first two chains are.

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Are hit by one domino, the original chain.

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Anyway.

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So you've got all these causes

coming about by previous

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causes, but he's arguing.

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If someone outside the domino chain.

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Then knock the first one over then

the whole chain when it started.

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Hmm.

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So that's his example of an uncaused

cause so in a logic or philosophy

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class People could go back and forth

debating these individual premises.

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And they have, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then the third one

is very similar to that.

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It's about the argument that

we're all contingent being

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snowed as it has to be here.

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If everyone was contingent, then there

would be a time where nothing was here,

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which seems impossible because then you'd

have something coming out of nothing

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which goes against our rationality.

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So he argues that because

there are contingent beings.

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There has to be a necessary beam.

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So the unmoved mover, the uncaused

cause or the necessary being the

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ultimate standard of every gradation.

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Is God.

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So he was just, approaching God

from some of these different.

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dimensions that we all

experience on a daily basis.

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Right.

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So that's kind of why it's a.

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proof from.

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the natural world.

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Yes.

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Right, because obviously

Aristotle, wasn't a believer.

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Yeah.

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So, so these religious sense,

I mean, he believed in God.

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In this sense, but he wasn't an

adherent of a religious tradition.

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these all feel.

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Pretty heady.

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Abstract.

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Abstract.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Uh, do you, personally

find these pretty helpful.

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Well, I think I'll come

back to that question.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Because I do want to talk about.

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My take on this, I find them.

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Helpful for some situations and sometimes.

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Okay.

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But to develop an answer, I

want to stay there for the end.

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Okay.

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That's great.

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Those are all cosmological

arguments because they're.

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Arguing from the existence of the

cosmos or something about the cosmos.

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To God, there is another kind of,

there are a lot of different kinds of

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arguments, but there's one other argument.

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For God, based upon the universe,

that's a little bit different.

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it's called the argument from design.

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It's also called the teleological

argument because the Greek word high loss.

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It means goal or end.

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So the idea is kind of combined,

it's designed to meet a certain

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end or goal in this case, human

life and human flourishing.

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So the universe is designed

to support human life.

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In such a way that God's plans can

be fulfilled as the idea, the end.

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So that's why it's sometimes

called teleological argument.

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And argument about things have

been designed towards a goal or an

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end or purpose, and sometimes just

called the argument from design.

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the cosmological argument starts from the

premise of what is, and then this one.

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Starts from the premise of.

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Kind of the characteristics

of what is kind of okay.

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Okay.

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So, let me give you some example.

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The most basic and perhaps the

most well-known was presented

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by William Paley in 1805 or so.

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And he imagined this scenario where

you're walking down a beach and

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you had never seen a watch before.

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But you find a watch on the beach.

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And you go home and you're

able to pry it open.

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And you notice all the minute.

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Uh, Springs and gears.

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And you notice that they all work

together with this incredible complexity.

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To produce something very simple though.

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The moving of the hands on the front.

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And you notice that

the front of the watch.

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Is the only part in case ding glass.

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That's the only part transparent.

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So that you can see those two

hands move across the face.

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And he would say your natural

inclination to say, That this is

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something that is designed for purpose.

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There is a goal and that's to

let the hands would go around.

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The watch.

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At a Regular sequence so

that you could tell the time.

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Now.

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That's easy.

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To conceptualize.

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That's why I start there.

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But.

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David Hume.

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British philosopher.

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Really late into this argument a lot.

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And he had a lot of very persuasive

responses to it, showing it had

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a lot of fallacy attached to it.

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and I'm not going to necessarily

go into all of those, but.

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Basically, he argued that.

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maybe the world looks more like

an organism, like a vegetable

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rather than a watch, you know?

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And even if this did prove.

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That it was designed.

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It doesn't have to be one designer

that could be all kinds of designers,

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you know, each doing a different part.

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So it doesn't prove the

Christian God at all.

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It would only approve maybe a

multitude of designers of some sort.

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Anyway, he had a lot of very

persuasive responses to this.

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And for many decades, it was the, like the

argument from design was basically dead.

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But it's had a resurrection

in the last 50 years.

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And this is very live argument now.

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Primarily, there are

two areas in which this.

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argument has had a resurrection.

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And one of those is biological and the

second is cosmological or astrophysical.

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so thinking here of the large

scale structure of the universe

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that we can see outside of us.

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So biologically.

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The reasons had a resurrection.

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Is because we still haven't solved

the Uh, of how life could arise.

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Naturally.

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From non-living things.

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everything else we see around us.

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Life comes from preexisting life.

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Yeah, we haven't figured out a way.

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That that doesn't happen yet.

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So that's one thing.

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That's a design idea.

464

:

And the second as we began

to study how cells work.

465

:

And the integral parts

of the microbiology.

466

:

You get the question?

467

:

All right.

468

:

Well, how would the first cell arise?

469

:

Since all the parts of the cell.

470

:

Need to be there already

and function together.

471

:

For the cell to work.

472

:

There are people who have

developed this William bay.

473

:

I think I'm saying that name, right?

474

:

He wrote a book called Darwin's black box.

475

:

that works through this.

476

:

There's still discussion about this.

477

:

Or then again, under biological, how can

incredibly complex structures like DNA.

478

:

Appear.

479

:

Somehow.

480

:

Uh, evolve without any plan or purpose.

481

:

So there are a lot of people who are

the more they're looking at these

482

:

things, we're saying, you know what.

483

:

There does seem to be designed

on a microbiological level.

484

:

so the argument is.

485

:

Things like watches.

486

:

you just assume that it's so

complicated that somebody built it.

487

:

Yes.

488

:

And then when you look at.

489

:

The world you also see.

490

:

Okay.

491

:

It's so complicated.

492

:

Is that it makes sense that

there's intelligent mind behind it.

493

:

Yes.

494

:

And you're saying that.

495

:

The way that Biology has progressed.

496

:

We see there's increasing complexity,

which Makes an intelligent mind behind it.

497

:

More persuasive.

498

:

Yes.

499

:

Okay.

500

:

And I will delve into that a lot.

501

:

Number one, because I don't have

a great training in biology.

502

:

Uh, but number two, just

because of the time constraints.

503

:

so I want to go on to astronomical

or cosmological aspects of this.

504

:

And here, what we see in

the last 50 to 80 years.

505

:

Is that we understand that

the universe seems to have a

506

:

fine tuning that we did not.

507

:

No, or understand or perceive before.

508

:

So what does fine tuning mean?

509

:

Well, imagine you go into this.

510

:

room.

511

:

And you've got a.

512

:

Universe creating machine.

513

:

All right.

514

:

And you've got all these

dials and controls.

515

:

That you have to set the constraints of

this universal, what they're going to be.

516

:

And you can, you can play anything.

517

:

For example, one of those knobs

that you're going to control

518

:

is the rate of expansion.

519

:

Uh, the rate of expansion of the universe.

520

:

So the universe is

expanding right now, right?

521

:

We talked about that previous episode.

522

:

Another, it would be the force of gravity.

523

:

there's, there's going

to be dozens of these.

524

:

So you've got dozens of these knobs.

525

:

You have pretty much infinite

control over each one about where

526

:

you're going to set the dial.

527

:

Now, what they're finding is.

528

:

All the dials are set.

529

:

To create a universe.

530

:

That is able to sustain life.

531

:

In particular life of mammals.

532

:

And intelligent beings like humans.

533

:

And it's amazing how if the

dial was off just a little bit.

534

:

For example, the

expansion of the universe.

535

:

At the university.

536

:

We're to expand even a little bit faster.

537

:

It would dissipate.

538

:

The heat and energy of the universe

would dissipate too quickly.

539

:

We won't be able to form stable galaxies.

540

:

If it expanded a little bit slower.

541

:

However.

542

:

we would have a big crunch.

543

:

The gravitational forces would

have overcome the rate of expansion

544

:

and all the matter of the universe

would have crunched back audit.

545

:

So.

546

:

So you want to know how fine

tune you have to have this.

547

:

Yeah, that was going to be my question.

548

:

You said a little bit

faster, a little bit slower.

549

:

All right.

550

:

It has to be fine tuned.

551

:

To one part in 10 to the 60th power.

552

:

10 with 60 zeros.

553

:

That's the same as finding $1 bill.

554

:

Out of a pile of a trillion trillion,

trillion, trillion, trillion dollars.

555

:

That's crazy.

556

:

So you're saying that everything

just had to happen so perfectly.

557

:

In order for life to be sustained.

558

:

Yes.

559

:

So the argument is that.

560

:

Random chance.

561

:

Isn't really a viable.

562

:

Right.

563

:

It looks like it's designed.

564

:

Okay.

565

:

And so you said the gravitational

constraint had to be perfect.

566

:

I just, I did a quick search.

567

:

Electromagnetic force

is extremely fine tuned.

568

:

So that there's strong nuclear

force in the weak nuclear force.

569

:

That if they were any different

life itself, wouldn't be conducive.

570

:

Electromagnetic force all these, these

are the knobs that you're talking about.

571

:

Right?

572

:

Right.

573

:

So there's a, one in 10 to

the 60th power chance at all.

574

:

These.

575

:

No, just one.

576

:

Just one of those maps.

577

:

Oh, just one of those,

just the expansion though.

578

:

Oh, that's just the expansion of, yeah.

579

:

So if the expansion was off by

the tiniest degree, One part in.

580

:

And tend to the 16th power.

581

:

then.

582

:

Life itself couldn't exist.

583

:

Right?

584

:

Well, Right.

585

:

Again, none of these things

were known a hundred years ago.

586

:

these are all coming about

in the last 50 to 80 years.

587

:

so some of Hume's responses, mate.

588

:

I still be, I mean, This doesn't

necessarily mean that there's just

589

:

one fine tuner could be a host of fine

tutors, but it shows that there is.

590

:

There's actually some weightiness today.

591

:

They're fine tuning there.

592

:

So much so that people go to

great lengths to escape the

593

:

conclusions that the universe.

594

:

looks like it's designed no matter

if it's one designer or many,

595

:

they don't want that conclusion.

596

:

So they'll postulate theories like multi

versus if you have an infinite number

597

:

of universes, then one of them would

end up with just these constraints.

598

:

Of course, we have no proof of an infinite

number of universe and the whole concept.

599

:

is not the result of science, but

rather avoiding the implications

600

:

of the science that we have.

601

:

But that's where you have to go.

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

I mean, that's still go.

604

:

It still leaves science

and goes to philosophy.

605

:

Sure.

606

:

It's still, I mean, you still

have to deal with the question

607

:

of infinity in a natural form.

608

:

I mean, you.

609

:

We just talked about that.

610

:

Like, You can't just presume that

there's an infinite number of universes.

611

:

No.

612

:

Well, there's a lot of reasons for that,

but even then You've got to suppose then

613

:

that there's some fours, entity person who

is creating all these infinite universes.

614

:

And it's apart from our universe,

it's not something that you could

615

:

understand or to study with science.

616

:

It's not a scientific question anymore.

617

:

. Now the upshot of that is.

618

:

That a lot of people are looking at this.

619

:

And seen, you know, what.

620

:

That design argument.

621

:

It's not that bad.

622

:

It certainly seems to show in

a common sense, interpretation

623

:

of the facts of reality.

624

:

The science has shown us

in the last 15, 80 years.

625

:

It looks like things are designed.

626

:

Fred Hoyle was a Cambridge.

627

:

cosmologist astronomer.

628

:

And he put it this way.

629

:

A common sense.

630

:

Interpretation of the evidence

suggests that his super intellect has

631

:

monkeyed with physics and chemistry.

632

:

As well as biology.

633

:

To make life possible.

634

:

historian and science

for Burnham has written.

635

:

The God hypothesis.

636

:

Is now a more persuasive and

respectable hypothesis than at

637

:

any time in the last 100 years.

638

:

Well, let me give you one example of this.

639

:

Of how it's changed.

640

:

Someone's mind.

641

:

There was.

642

:

The curious case of Anthony flu,

have you heard of Anthony flu?

643

:

I have not.

644

:

Okay.

645

:

In his last book.

646

:

The subtitle describes him as the

world's most notorious atheist.

647

:

Okay.

648

:

I'm sorry, Anthony.

649

:

I haven't.

650

:

Sorry, I haven't heard of, you

know, I've got a couple of his

651

:

books where I used to have one now.

652

:

Um, It's like a pedia philosophy.

653

:

You had a couple more measure.

654

:

What happened to him?

655

:

Anyway.

656

:

He is.

657

:

In my mind, it's not arguable.

658

:

He is.

659

:

The most influential.

660

:

Atheist philosopher of the past 200 years.

661

:

No, that's a big claim.

662

:

But you have to remember.

663

:

He began writing in the 1950s.

664

:

He wrote a small essay called

theology and false vacation.

665

:

Which is the most read philosophical

work of the late 20th century,

666

:

the last half of the 20th century.

667

:

And then he wrote over 40 books.

668

:

He was a philosopher.

669

:

And he was especially interested.

670

:

In the question of religion.

671

:

And also he was very much interested in

trained in critical thinking and logic.

672

:

So he wrote over 40 books.

673

:

Let me just read a few of the titles.

674

:

Uh, do essays and philosophical theology.

675

:

Logic and language.

676

:

That was a big one.

677

:

God, in philosophy.

678

:

Logic and language evolutionary ethics.

679

:

body-mind and death

thinking about thinking.

680

:

Thinking straight through

presumption of atheism.

681

:

Dictionary philosophy.

682

:

Darwinian evolution.

683

:

God, a critical inquiry.

684

:

agency necessity.

685

:

Did Jesus really rise from the dead and

had a debate with Gary Habermas and he

686

:

argued the negative side of flu did.

687

:

The logic of mortality.

688

:

Got a critical inquiry.

689

:

Uh, an updated version.

690

:

Does God exist?

691

:

A believer in an atheist debate?

692

:

And again, he was an atheist

on that particular one.

693

:

Uh, atheistic humanism, philosophical

essays, and then does God exist in which

694

:

he has a debate with William Lane, Craig?

695

:

And again, he are using atheist

position that God does not exist.

696

:

William Lane, Craig.

697

:

That one, it was in 2003.

698

:

In 2004, he began talking about.

699

:

These arguments.

700

:

And revisiting them in light of what

science has shown in the last 50 years.

701

:

And there were inklings rumors

that he was changing his mind.

702

:

And then in 2007, he published.

703

:

There is a God, how the world's most

notorious atheist changed his mind.

704

:

Now.

705

:

what he said basically was this.

706

:

I now believe the universe

was brought into existence

707

:

by an infinite intelligence.

708

:

I believe that this universe is

intricate laws manifests, what the

709

:

scientists have called the mind of God.

710

:

I believe that life and reproduction

originate in a divine source.

711

:

And when questioned about

this, he said, basically, I'm

712

:

just following the evidence.

713

:

So we talked about the cosmological

issues that we mentioned, you

714

:

know, the fine tuning argument.

715

:

I talked about how nature

obeys the laws like this.

716

:

Talk about the dimension of life.

717

:

Intelligently organized and

purpose driven beings, which arose.

718

:

From matter.

719

:

How that could happen if there

wasn't a divine intelligence.

720

:

Hm.

721

:

And then the third is the

very existence of nature.

722

:

So he says, I've been thinking

about all these things.

723

:

I've examining them So I bring Anthony

flew up because he is an expert.

724

:

On the questions of atheism.

725

:

Believe in God.

726

:

And logic.

727

:

He's an expert at analyzing arguments.

728

:

He has a background.

729

:

That I don't think anyone else

has as much in terms of being

730

:

an expert in all these areas.

731

:

And if he changed his mind, it tells you.

732

:

That these type of arguments.

733

:

Can really have some weight with

people who are willing, like he

734

:

said, to follow the evidence.

735

:

Yeah, that's, pretty crazy

that had written so much.

736

:

that's a long list.

737

:

I know you didn't even exhaust

all of his publications.

738

:

Oh, there's like 40.

739

:

And about half of them deal with

the issues of logic, critical

740

:

thinking or religious belief.

741

:

So he, changed his mind

on the existence of God.

742

:

. he didn't necessarily have a.

743

:

Profound religious experience that

led him to Christianity or something?

744

:

No, in fact, he did

not become a Christian.

745

:

So these arguments don't necessarily

point somebody in the direction of a

746

:

specific religion, as much as just.

747

:

The foundational truth to

many religions, which is yep.

748

:

That there is a God.

749

:

Yeah, or gods and that's one

of the limitations, but it's

750

:

also, again, reminding us of

what these arguments are about.

751

:

Okay.

752

:

Yeah.,

753

:

.

And that's a neat case study there.

754

:

. So as we begin to wrap up, I'd

love to hear kind of your, take.

755

:

We've been talking about a

couple of different arguments

756

:

and that kind of thing.

757

:

So what's kind of your general take on

what we've been talking about so far.

758

:

Yeah, sure.

759

:

Well, my analysis is, or my thought is.

760

:

I think a very good case can be made.

761

:

That it is more rational to believe in a

creator God, then to believe in that the

762

:

universe has no origin outside of itself.

763

:

I believe it's more rational to

believe in theism the naturalism.

764

:

But I see three problems with relying

on proves of God for your faith.

765

:

First there's always back

and forth in these issues.

766

:

There are rebuttals.

767

:

There are counter rebuttals

and counter counter rebuttals.

768

:

So that's going to make

it a shaky foundation.

769

:

If that's what you base your faith on.

770

:

A second.

771

:

Kind of related to that, most

folks are not really trained to

772

:

adequately analyze these arguments.

773

:

And rebuttals and counter rebuttals.

774

:

'cause you really you'd have

to have training in logic,

775

:

both formal and informal.

776

:

Critical thinking.

777

:

Philosophy and theology.

778

:

And then for some of these you'd

want training in science as

779

:

well, or at least a little bit.

780

:

And how many folks have that

kind of training and background?

781

:

And then third, even if it could

lead you to intellectual certainty.

782

:

That is not faith.

783

:

Faith requires personal decision,

not intellectual certainty.

784

:

So I think it's better

to view these things.

785

:

Not as proves, but as a sign.

786

:

As I could be mistaken.

787

:

But at the same time, they're very

valuable when we remember that

788

:

they're pointing beyond themselves.

789

:

, so then as signs, what do they do?

790

:

Well first I think they point.

791

:

And that's what Paul has

in mind in Romans one.

792

:

Most folks are not going to read up on

the cosmological argument and come to

793

:

a deeper belief in God because of that.

794

:

But they might many do by staring

in wonder at the starry skies.

795

:

Or walking in a lovely veil

between new two mountains.

796

:

Or even just be in an observing

the natural world around them.

797

:

And then second.

798

:

They give reasons to believe,

even if they don't give proof.

799

:

I don't think most people

can believe in Christ.

800

:

Without believing that there is a God.

801

:

So if they're totally convinced

that there could be a God.

802

:

There's really not any

room for faith then.

803

:

As a guest input, it, we're not

asked to believe without reason.

804

:

But the very limits are reason.

805

:

Make faith.

806

:

Necessary.

807

:

So I like how ELL Maskell interprets

Thomas Aquinas's five proofs.

808

:

He writes, quote.

809

:

These are not five different arguments,

but five different ways of exhibiting

810

:

the radically self-sufficient

character of finite beans.

811

:

And so leading us to

see them as dependent.

812

:

Finite beings.

813

:

On a transcendent self

deficient creative cause.

814

:

So, let me, let me read that again.

815

:

These are not five different

arguments, but five different ways.

816

:

Of exhibiting the radically and

self-sufficient character of finite beans.

817

:

And so leading finite beings like us.

818

:

To see ourselves as

dependent on a transcendent

819

:

self-sufficient creative cause.

820

:

So in other words, they like aside

point us in the direction of faith.

821

:

By showing the alternatives

to faith app problems.

822

:

and that's why, in my opinion, faith

is choosing to believe based on

823

:

good, but not compelling reasons.

824

:

And I think.

825

:

The science can be part of that.

826

:

so mad skills in interpretation is that.

827

:

The sort of provide a philosophical

undergirding to faith to show

828

:

that it's it's reasonable.

829

:

At least We can have some grounding

on that, even though that's

830

:

not what our entire faith is.

831

:

Even if that's not what our

entire faith consists of.

832

:

Right.

833

:

Exactly.

834

:

And then the last thing I

think that the science can do.

835

:

Is posterior typically.

836

:

So they have to come after belief.

837

:

But I think they allow us to understand.

838

:

God's glory and personhood more fully.

839

:

So once we have made that faith

decision, then these things

840

:

can help us to understand.

841

:

That this universe does

indeed show the glory of God.

842

:

It reveals something about his

eternal nature and divine power.

843

:

Just like we can recognize

a van go from a Rembrandt.

844

:

And we can see the beauty and

imagination and vision of vanco a little

845

:

bit, at least from what he paints.

846

:

We can also agree with sir Thomas Brown.

847

:

The nature is the art of God.

848

:

I really like with tablets, a campus says.

849

:

If they heart were right than every

creature would be a mirror of life.

850

:

And a book of holy doctrine.

851

:

There is no creature

is so small and object.

852

:

But it reflects the goodness of God.

853

:

And John Smith.

854

:

There's a two-fold meaning in every

creature, a literal and a mystical.

855

:

And the one is, but the

ground of the other.

856

:

So, what I'm trying to get across is that.

857

:

After we've made that faith

decision and believe that nature.

858

:

Is the handiwork of God.

859

:

Then we can understand God and

the beauty of what he's doing.

860

:

Because we're seeing things,

not just as objects of our

861

:

perception or scientific study.

862

:

But as somehow a representation of

some aspect of God or God's wisdom.

863

:

And that changes how you view.

864

:

Nature.

865

:

Even Albert Einstein, and I'm not

sure what context he made this quote,

866

:

but this is a great quote from him.

867

:

He writes the intuitive mind is

a sacred gift and the rational

868

:

mind is a faithful servant.

869

:

We have created a society that honors

the servant and has forgotten the gift.

870

:

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and

the rational mind is a faithful servant.

871

:

We have created a society

that honors the servant.

872

:

And has forgotten the gift.

873

:

With that in mind.

874

:

I think we can come back.

875

:

With the limitation and say,

no, we need the scriptures.

876

:

But having the scriptures

and having this trust in God.

877

:

In this way, then we can agree with

Thomas Payne when he writes these words.

878

:

The word of God is the creation.

879

:

We behold.

880

:

Do we want to contemplate his power?

881

:

We see it in the

immensity of his creation.

882

:

Do we want to contemplate his wisdom?

883

:

We see it in the unchangeable

order, by which the in

884

:

comprehensible whole is governed.

885

:

Do we want to contemplate his munificence.

886

:

We see it in the abundance

with which he fills the earth.

887

:

Do we want to contemplate his mercy?

888

:

We see it in his not

withholding that abundance.

889

:

Even from the unthankful.

890

:

Do we want to contemplate his

will so far as it respects, man.

891

:

The goodness he shows to all is a

lesson for our conduct to each other.

892

:

And I agree.

893

:

In that light.

894

:

The university and

teaches a lot about God.

895

:

Yeah, what a beautiful way to end.

896

:

All right, that's it for now?

897

:

Well, thanks so much.

898

:

Yeah.

899

:

Thanks.

900

:

Bye.

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