Episode 5

Dealing with Doubt

How do we deal with our intellectual doubts? In this episode, Daniel gives four practical ways to deal with doubts, based upon his 30 years as a pastor, and on his own life.

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): Welcome to

philosophy and faith where our goal is

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to help you navigate your intellectual

and spiritual journey, especially in

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regards to topics like God, faith and

doubt, meaning and purpose and more.

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I'm Nathan Beasley and I'm Daniel Jepson.

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And together we discuss the big

questions that humans have wrestled

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with for thousands of years.

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We're glad you can join us.

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So we've been talking about.

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Faith and doubt and how.

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Faith is not about certainty, but

there can actually be degrees of

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certainty and that sort of thing.

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And it's not just adhering to a set

of belief, but it's trusting a person.

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And so I think at this episode, we want

to kind of talk through, what does it look

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like when you are struggling with faith?

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Or you're deconstructing or maybe somebody

comes to you and they say, I'm in a

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season of deconstructing certain beliefs.

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What should I do?

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so Daniel, how would you

walk through somebody's?

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Who comes to you expressing that?

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What are some practical ways that you

can can give to help us deal with doubt?

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Sure.

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And a lot of these are going to be

dependent on where that person is and

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what they're particularly doubting.

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But certainly I've had many times of

doubt before in my Christian walk.

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As you probably have to.

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Yeah.

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And so some of these are what has

helped me or helped other people.

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let me give you some.

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Suggestions.

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And the first.

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Is this idea that you mentioned

last time that we need ballast.

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And for those who may not

be familiar with the term.

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If the ship goes out onto the ocean,

it needs ballast, which is a very

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heavy weight in the bottom of the ship.

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Very often ships today, you see water,

but they used to use say bricks or rocks.

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You can find streets today that are made

or bricks that were formed in England.

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Because the shifts that

came and brought people from

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England, use those for ballots.

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Hmm.

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So, and what's the purpose of it.

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Oh, sorry.

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The purpose of ballast.

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Is that your ship has a stability on

the bottom, even when storms come.

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So you're going to have a storm

that, that rocks back and forth.

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And if you don't have any imbalance,

the ship is just going to go wherever

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the wind takes it without control.

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Oh.

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But if you have some Vallas, yeah.

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You're still gonna get rocked around

a lot, but you're able to stay

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upright and control of the ship.

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Yeah.

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So that's the idea.

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So the idea of ballast is

important because you are

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going to have times of doubts.

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And unless you have that balance,

might be game over in In terms

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of your walk with Christ.

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that's a helpful metaphor.

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What is.

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Balanced in the Christian life.

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How can you grow that?

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Well, one thing is just to deepen

your walk with Christ in your

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understanding of the scriptures.

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That to me has been the greatest ballast

in my life is looking at the scriptures

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and knowing, okay, there are some

things I don't like in this scripture.

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I'm going to be honest, I'm a pastor.

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As well as the teacher and there

are some things I don't like, there

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are some things I don't get it.

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There are some things that seem like,

okay, if I'm just reading this by itself,

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there is no way I'm believing this.

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At the same time.

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I had seen.

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Wondrous beautiful

truths within this book.

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That I've never seen anywhere else.

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So you came in literature and I've read.

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Uh, most of the classics.

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To me, there is a depth and a

beauty and a wonder to this.

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That to me is a lot of the balanced.

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So I think there've been times,

especially after our Sunday.

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Where maybe I would've walked away.

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If there weren't this idea.

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That I can't.

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You know, Just too much here.

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And I think you see that

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in John chapter six.

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Alright, this is a really good example.

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So Jesus gives.

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Some very puzzling statements.

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He's talking about, unless you eat

my body, you don't have eternal life.

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He hasn't instituted the

Eucharist yet the Lord's supper.

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So his disciples are really tripping out.

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That says a lot of the

crowd just up and leave.

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They're like, okay, that's just weird.

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Bizarre.

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You either are crazy or you're

just trying to drive us off on

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purpose, you know, or something.

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And, uh, he looks.

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At his disciples, the 12, and

he says, Do you want to go also?

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And I love the gentleness of Jesus.

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He's not trying to drive people

off, but he's making clear.

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And he's allowing people to leave.

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Do you want to leave also?

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And Peter says, Lord.

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Where can we go?

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Hmm.

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You have the words to be turned away.

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We believe we know you're the son of God.

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Wow.

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And he doesn't say, oh no, Jesus.

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We understand speaking symbolically about

body being given to us on the cross.

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And how we receive

God's life through that.

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He doesn't understand any of that.

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Cause across as it happened.

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he doesn't say no, we get it.

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He says, we have heard you

speak words of eternal life.

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Now there's nowhere else we can go.

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Wow.

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And when I look at all the alternatives.

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To the Christian Fe.

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Naturalism or Eastern thought or

some other idea that I could turn to.

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I can't.

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They don't have to me

the same truth or beauty.

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The Christianity has.

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So even in those times where I could

have walked away, I can't walk away.

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Wow.

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So to me that's balanced.

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For some people, it might be

more religious experience.

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either of their conversion and how God

changed their life, or perhaps some

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miracle that they saw, maybe the world

isn't called a miracle, but they saw

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they saw profound change or something.

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Profound answer to prayer.

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I heard someone say.

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You can't argue with someone with a story.

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And what he meant by that is you can't

just get philosophical arguments or

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logical arguments, just someone who knows.

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Uh, by their own personal

spirits, that something is true.

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So for some people, it might be that,

and the balanced in this case might be.

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Recalling that thinking that

through in your life a little bit.

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Yeah.

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It reminds me when Paul's distracting.

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I believe Timothy to.

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Make every effort to.

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Recall or confirm your calling?

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Yeah.

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where he saying, Hey, they're going to be

seasons when you're going to want to give

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up, but actually remembering the time when

Jesus called you to be a pastor and FSS.

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Remember that, because that can help

get you through the difficult times.

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Yeah, and that can help also

think That's probably the reason

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that God made the Passover.

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This beautiful event of what God had

done in Israel's history and saving them.

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An annual occurrence.

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And why the Lord's supper.

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Jesus says, remember me as you do this.

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We're not just practicing something.

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We are.

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Focusing our mind on what God has done

because so, and we probably do too.

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They're going to be times where

we don't see that unless we had

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that regular practice involved.

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Wow.

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So practices of remembering.

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Uh, and I know you've talked

about in, in, in various sermons.

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Just how frequently God

instructs Israel to remember.

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Yeah.

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Remember, remember, remember, because as

soon as you forget, That's that's when.

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I mean, losing that ballast is,

is a really challenging thing.

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I think another thing for me,

that's important to build.

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Dallas is testimony.

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Yeah.

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That's one of the other people,

testimonies of other people.

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Or even just sharing my own.

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Stories and testimony, not just being

like when I First became saved or

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anything like that necessarily, although

it can be that, but the ongoing.

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Recognition of God's work and movement.

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And my life.

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Uh, whether that's, My family or my

church community or that kind of thing.

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I remember this line from Dallas Willard.

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He talks about the

objective of apprentices.

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Is to dearly love and constantly delight

in the heavenly father made real.

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Earth in Jesus and become quite

certain that there is no catch, no

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limit the goodness of his intentions.

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Or his power to carry them out.

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Yeah, I love The quote,

getting to that place.

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Um, through personal experiences and

heart to heart connection with God through

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prayer description, that sort of thing can

definitely help develop the ballast there.

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Definitely.

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That's a, that's a huge one.

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I had another idea here.

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And I don't know if this falls

under the idea of balanced or

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separate, but it's kind of the idea.

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This phrase is an original,

but I don't remember where it

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came from is to borrow faith.

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And the idea.

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Being that they're going to be

times where you have in your mind.

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An intellectual objection to Christianity.

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And to borrow faith is to recognize

that other people, many of whom

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are probably smarter than you.

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Have also had that same objection

or understood that same problem.

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But it stayed faithful.

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So I think if a couple people come to

mind for myself, William Lane, Craig.

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is one of the very few people who has.

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Two PhDs under some of the

leading thinkers in their fields.

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So he went to England and got a PhD under

John Hicks and philosophy of religion.

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And at that time, John Higgs was

probably the most well-known scholar

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in the field of philosophy of religion.

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And then he went to Germany.

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And he got a PhD under

Jurgen Moltmann oh, no way.

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Yeah.

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I didn't realize that.

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Yeah.

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And if you.

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Familiar with 20th

century, late 20th century.

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The allergy.

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He is one of the two or three top names.

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Probably

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And maybe a few others.

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Yeah.

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So anyway, he's got two PhDs in separate

but related fields from the top.

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Academic people that he could write those

PhDs under And he advocates for the faith.

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His entire life.

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There's not an argument that I

could think of that he doesn't know.

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Wow.

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Or another person that comes

to my mind is Alister McGrath.

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I just love his writings.

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He's a.

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Wonderful thinker.

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But, you know, he went to Oxford.

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And he got a PhD in molecular biology.

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And then he became a Christian

after that he wasn't atheist before.

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So he went and got a PhD in theology.

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which was also at Oxford, one of the

Oxford colleges, just for good measure.

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He went and got a PhD in intellectual

history at one of the other schools

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at Oxford three, Oxford PhDs.

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No.

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I look at that and I say, okay.

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There is nothing that will come across

my view that these guys haven't run

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across and yet they stay faithful.

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Hmm.

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Or in the area of science.

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Francis Collins.

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Head of the.

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Human genome project,

very devoted Christian.

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There's no science issue that I'm

going to run across that he hasn't

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already dealt with in an estate.

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Faithful.

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So that's what I mean by borrowing faith.

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Are you talking?

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Then, primarily from these kind

of intellectual giants who.

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have heard the good reasons, not

to believe in their fields of

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study and you have stayed faithful.

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That's a good question.

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We should probably expand that.

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they're going to be times we go through.

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Personal struggles sometimes

even personal tragedies.

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And we can borrow the faith

of someone else who has gone

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through something like that.

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And it stayed faithful.

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And we can look at them

and say, At least I know.

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I don't have to walk away.

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Even though it doesn't make sense to me.

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'cause I've seen models of

people who stay faithful.

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Yeah.

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So it might be more like

that depending on the person.

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Yeah, I I'm just thinking about.

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Faith community we have here and thinking.

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That, as one of the younger

guys, here's a lot of people.

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Who have experienced a lot of

things older than me and are

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still coming Sunday mornings.

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Right.

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And so that to me is a very

encouraging thing, especially as I.

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Spend time with them.

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I got to launch a coffee or something

and hear more of their stories because.

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I'm understanding more and more the

ways in which they've experienced a

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lot of life and difficulty in life.

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Yeah.

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And as a young person, that's just

so helpful for me building up.

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The ballast and there's not

something in my mind that.

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I've experienced in my life that I

would put in the category of a tragedy.

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But I know that it's not outside

of the realm of possibilities.

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And so what I'm trying to do now

is, is to develop that and ways.

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because I know that it will come.

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Yeah.

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I don't think you're wise.

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And I'm not saying this as a absolute

rule, but a lot of times the people who.

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Walk away from the faith.

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Are not practicing the faith in a

community with that kind of faithfulness.

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And so they don't have that balanced.

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And they don't have the support.

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So, again, that's not

an absolute statement.

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There are exceptions to that.

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Yeah.

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let me give two more here.

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One more minor one and then

one major one I want to end on.

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Minor one would be to

fake it until you make it.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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And we've heard that phrase right.

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And what I mean here is recognize

that you will have seasons of doubt.

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in your life, sometimes

they're going to be small.

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Sometimes they're going to maybe log.

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Very deep and very long.

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But you have a choice to stay engaged

and stay in a community and stay

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following Christ as best you can.

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In spite of those times.

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Even when you don't feel it, recognize in

your feelings are going to come and go.

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But you're not going to let them dictate.

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How you act.

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You're going to choose to add based upon

your will and what you want to be true.

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And what you think is true.

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Even if you don't feel it at the moment.

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What if that makes me

feel like an imposter.

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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I would say it depends on your

motive if you're doing it to get

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the Plaza or the people, or some

external reason like that, then yeah.

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You are an imposter.

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But if you're just doing it recognizing

honestly, I'm going to keep doing

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this, even though my emotions aren't

fully engaged, or I have some doubts.

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So I'm just going to keep at it.

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To me, that's not an imposter.

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That's just recognizing

that part of being a human.

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Is our emotions and our

certainty levels go up and down.

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and I think the definition of faith

from the last episode and that we're

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carrying on through here is really

helpful here that it's not just

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faith is not just about certainty.

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Right.

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But it's also an active Alation.

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So even continuing.

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Y you call it.

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Faking it till you make it.

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I would say.

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Stick with it.

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So you make it, I mean, there's

a way to, stay committed even

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though your certainty goes down.

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Of course, there's so many metaphors here.

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But you don't do things that are valuable

just because you feel like doing them.

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You do them because they are.

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Good things to do.

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In fact, I heard a definition of maturity.

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That's that?

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Yeah.

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Sure it is not just doing good things

because you want to, but because

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they're the right thing to do.

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So I'm actually.

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Immature because sometimes

I don't do the dishes.

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Well, we're all immature.

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But, I mean, I think putting that here.

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is helpful because.

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If you think that those things can

help carry you through certainty

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or your feelings fluctuate,

it still is an act of faith.

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Given the definition.

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That you've already given us.

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Yeah.

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that's a good point, but the maturity in.

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I suppose in some ways it's something

like sticking in the marriage, even

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though you don't feel like it's

sometimes or sticking out important

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tasks, like writing a book or.

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Some other important tasks to you.

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You're not always going to feel.

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The desire to do that, or even

that it's valuable to do that.

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But you stick with it because you realize.

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Those feelings are going

to change eventually.

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Yeah.

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Especially if you stick with it and

it's still doing something in you.

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Yeah.

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Good opening up the word or carving

out time to pray or going to

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church or small group or something.

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It's still doing something in

you, even if you don't know it.

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And the aim is never just to

do it for the sake of doing it.

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But for the sake of the greater good.

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Which is fellowship with God and others.

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Yep.

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And so.

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Yeah, maybe I'm digressing a

little bit, but no, that's fine.

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All right.

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Let's talk about the last thing to me.

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The most important thing.

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Before we get there.

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Can you recap the first.

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Sure.

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Three.

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Make sure you have ballots.

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Okay.

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So ballast can be your own study of

scripture, your own walk with God.

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It can be.

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Experienced testimonies.

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Yeah, it could be experience.

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It could be testimony.

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You can borrow faith.

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If you need to.

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That may be part of that balance.

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You a fake it till you make it.

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And then lastly, I would say.

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The most important part is to

kind of change the metaphor.

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Uh, what faith is.

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I want to explain what I mean by that.

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I think.

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In my early years.

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And some people probably have this idea.

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Faith is like a house of cards.

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There's all these beliefs that

go together and they fit together

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and they support each other.

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there's all these beliefs about God

and the Bible and church tradition and

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where my church teaches about Jesus.

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they all support each other.

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They each have one to have their place.

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And what's the problem with, with

the house of cards metaphor though.

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You take one card out.

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Yeah.

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And I feel like some people.

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Have that faulty metaphor because

they feel like, okay, well, you

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know, I can't believe Genesis one.

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Is true, right.

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And so they walk away from the

faith because then all of a sudden.

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Well, yeah, the whole thing falls

down or they don't believe like

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some part of the old Testament.

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Or they have a problem with a part of the

old Testament, like, the conquest wars.

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And I get that.

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Or they have some other thing

that they feel like, okay,

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I can't believe this idea.

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This part of the Christian

teaching, therefore the whole

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things comes tumbling down.

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Now.

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I think a better way of

thinking through that.

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Is the idea of concentric circles.

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So concentric circles, you got one

circle at the very center, right.

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And the other circles around there.

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Yeah.

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And the center of this circle

is Jesus Christ himself.

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Because state is not

primarily believing ideas.

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It's trusting a person.

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And their person is Jesus.

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Now as we talked about last time.

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You probably have to have some

beliefs about Jesus, that he

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existed, that he rise rose from the

dead that he taught these things.

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But the heart of it is trusting a person.

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Even if you don't get all the rest.

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The heart.

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Of true faith.

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Is Jesus at that center,

that middle circle.

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The circle around which everything else.

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Expands out of, and then the

second circle outside of that.

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So around that.

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Would be the teachings of Jesus.

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So I believe Jesus.

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It makes sense, therefore, to

believe the teachings of Jesus

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that I see in the scriptures.

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So the first circle is Jesus.

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The second circle is

the teachings of Jesus.

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And then

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third circle would be.

449

:

The Bible teaching about the

most important issues generally.

450

:

So issues about God, about

the cross, about salvation.

451

:

About what it means to walk with God.

452

:

Those kinds of things at the very heart

of Christian belief from the Bible.

453

:

Those be that next circle.

454

:

The third circle.

455

:

Doctrines.

456

:

Theology's the major

teachings of the Bible.

457

:

Okay.

458

:

And then the fourth circle outside of that

would be the other teachings of the Bible.

459

:

And so outside of those doctrines,

I would put, for example, Issues

460

:

or chronology issues of, dating.

461

:

Issues of authorship of

certain particular books.

462

:

Harmonization.

463

:

That kind of thing.

464

:

Harmonization,

465

:

Or the place of spiritual gifts,

you know, doctrines like that.

466

:

Doctrines of the end times kind

of secondary secondary issues.

467

:

I mean, if you're a.

468

:

You know, amillennialist or

pre millennialist or something.

469

:

And you're beginning to doubt that

particular theory of eschatology.

470

:

Sorry.

471

:

I realized I just spit

out a lot of big words.

472

:

I mean, your, your faith

is not in those things.

473

:

Exactly.

474

:

And so you can believe

many people do that.

475

:

The Bible is mistaken about some

issue in Genesis or second Chronicles.

476

:

But you still believe in Jesus.

477

:

I'm not saying that's

where I am necessarily.

478

:

I'm just saying it's

certainly conceivable.

479

:

Yeah.

480

:

Um, And then outside of that,

that last circle would be.

481

:

Church's traditions and interpretations

of all the above all that's inside this.

482

:

Um, so the church can be dead wrong.

483

:

But that doesn't mean Jesus is.

484

:

The church has made up of fallible humans.

485

:

Oh, wow.

486

:

We're going to interpret things through

our very limited human knowledge.

487

:

And very obvious human sin and bias.

488

:

Right.

489

:

So we're not going to

get everything right.

490

:

But that's not the question.

491

:

The question is.

492

:

When I look at this

Jesus in the scripture.

493

:

Do I believe that he existed?

494

:

And that he went to the cross

for me, was resurrected.

495

:

And that, because of that, I can now

have a new relationship with God.

496

:

If I believe that.

497

:

That is what it means to be a Christian.

498

:

Especially if I, I think probably

include the second circle of

499

:

trying to follow his teachings.

500

:

To me, it seems consistent.

501

:

That those other circles

probably fit into place as true.

502

:

But it's not a house of cards.

503

:

It's a circle where I focused on Jesus.

504

:

And if I have an issue with some

of these other things for awhile,

505

:

It's not the end of the world.

506

:

It's not the end of my faith.

507

:

Yeah, so that the church can change

and that doesn't have to wreck us.

508

:

No, not at all.

509

:

That's so interesting because I feel like.

510

:

There's a lot of change going on

in the global church right now.

511

:

There's a lot of shifting and,

you know, New issues and culture.

512

:

Uh, I've just led people to

different sides of different

513

:

issues and that kind of thing.

514

:

But.

515

:

That doesn't have to move

us away from faith in Jesus.

516

:

No.

517

:

No.

518

:

And sometimes it can remind us

to focus on that faith in Jesus.

519

:

Instead of all the peripheral issues.

520

:

Because we can disagree with each other.

521

:

I can disagree with other christians

and other denominations, other

522

:

countries about certain doctrines.

523

:

Or even how to interpret

parts of the Bible.

524

:

But if we have a common belief and trust

in Jesus, And we are brothers and sisters.

525

:

Yeah.

526

:

So it's not that, that

other stuff doesn't matter.

527

:

No.

528

:

It's just not central.

529

:

It's not that it doesn't matter.

530

:

It does.

531

:

But it doesn't matter as much

as that first and second circle.

532

:

so first circle is Jesus.

533

:

Second one is Jesus teaching.

534

:

Third one is kind of those.

535

:

core teachings of the Bible.

536

:

What you might say is in the Apostle's

creed, city, apostles, creed.

537

:

Even knows, you're saying like,

what if I'm struggling with those.

538

:

I'm struggling with.

539

:

He descended into hell as a doctrine.

540

:

And that, that little line in

the Apostle's creed that I still

541

:

don't understand what it means.

542

:

Okay.

543

:

That's real, by the way.

544

:

I don't know what that means.

545

:

Um, it has more of the idea of

he descended to the underworld.

546

:

We're reading English.

547

:

They were using Hades, which would have

been a Greek word for just the underworld

548

:

in general, but I'm just saying, so,

549

:

I'm struggling with something in there.

550

:

I'm doubting one of the phrases that we

hold to be core teachings it consistent

551

:

with the historical global church.

552

:

Now, what does that mean for me?

553

:

It means you're struggling as a Christian.

554

:

To believe certain things about the Bible.

555

:

What about Christian teaching?

556

:

But it doesn't mean

you're not a Christian.

557

:

Okay.

558

:

I got another one.

559

:

All right.

560

:

Doctrine of.

561

:

Scripture.

562

:

Yeah.

563

:

You know, the term totally

authoritative versus inerrancy.

564

:

You know what, if I'm struggling

with the inerrancy of scripture.

565

:

That's fine.

566

:

I don't think that's An issue that

you base or lose your salvation on.

567

:

And I think.

568

:

If you read the scriptures.

569

:

Very thoughtfully.

570

:

You're going to have that struggle.

571

:

So you have to work through it.

572

:

One way or another.

573

:

But.

574

:

I think most.

575

:

Most pastors or most Bible teachers

who have really delved into the word.

576

:

Have had to wrestle with that

and come out one way or another.

577

:

And we don't all have to

come out at the same place.

578

:

so doctrines like, an

errancy or, or God's wrath.

579

:

I think is another one

that like, oh, that's it.

580

:

That's an uncomfortable idea.

581

:

Yeah.

582

:

And I'm glad you're bringing this up

because some of these are uncomfortable

583

:

to this and maybe the church has not.

584

:

Formulated these things in the

best terminology or ways, or even

585

:

understood them rightly and sometimes.

586

:

I mean, I think the

church is still learning.

587

:

I think we have.

588

:

A better understanding of some

things than previous generations.

589

:

Not because we're smarter, but just

because we're standing on their shoulders.

590

:

So.

591

:

If someone is like, okay, I

can't follow Christ because the

592

:

doctrine of the wrath of God just.

593

:

You know, I can't abide

that or I don't believe it.

594

:

I would say.

595

:

Keep faith in Christ.

596

:

Work through that one way or another.

597

:

But that's not the heart

of what it means to be a.

598

:

A Christ follower.

599

:

Yeah, you will work through

that one way or another.

600

:

Yeah.

601

:

You know, you're not just blowing

it off, but we're just saying.

602

:

You can struggle and you could

doubt some of those other issues.

603

:

And that doesn't mean

you're not a Christian.

604

:

It doesn't mean you've

lost your faith in Christ.

605

:

Yeah, and I like that you bring up

the point of just like that, the

606

:

benefit of living in this day and age.

607

:

The church has always been global,

but with the internet and that

608

:

kind of thing, we have a lot of

opportunities to hear from other voices.

609

:

And I think that with certain questions

about certain doctrines, we really have

610

:

the gift of being able to hear from

People with different faith traditions.

611

:

Yeah, that's such a good point.

612

:

I mean, go here.

613

:

The Eastern Orthodox on the wrath

of God, or go here, the Catholic

614

:

position on whatever, or go read the,

the Baptist statement of faith or the

615

:

Methodists or paleon or Anglican like

There's different ways of viewing

616

:

these, ideas and these concepts.

617

:

And I think that sometimes, especially

as a younger person, I'm learning.

618

:

Okay.

619

:

Some of the stuff that I learned early

on, Maybe there is more nuance to it.

620

:

Sure.

621

:

It's good and it's right.

622

:

And it's true.

623

:

but it needs, it needs to be

balanced with another czar

624

:

position or that kind of thing.

625

:

Yeah, exactly.

626

:

There's always, well, not always.

627

:

There's usually more

nuance than we understand.

628

:

You have to remember that.

629

:

We primarily get our knowledge

of these things through pastors.

630

:

But pastors are going to be.

631

:

Trying to communicate this at a

certain level with certain timeframes.

632

:

Yeah.

633

:

So.

634

:

Uh, professor teaching.

635

:

physics.

636

:

Or professor teaching, um, Quantum

mechanics at an undergraduate level.

637

:

Which is still a pretty high level.

638

:

It's not going to be able to

communicate all the nuances and

639

:

qualifications of what they're teaching.

640

:

Yeah.

641

:

And those people.

642

:

Even though they have those ideas

and they talk about those with other

643

:

people who got a PhD or whatever.

644

:

So as a pastor, I know.

645

:

I've got 30 minutes to

communicate the main idea of this.

646

:

But I also know in the back of my

mind, there are a lot of nuances,

647

:

qualifications, objections.

648

:

and responses to those objections.

649

:

They're not going to get into

because I can't, it's not going

650

:

to be rhetorically helpful.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

It makes me think of those YouTube

videos that are like, Jacob Kali

653

:

or explains music theory at five

different levels like to five-year-old.

654

:

Oh yeah.

655

:

High school student to cost you

into doctoral student, you know, Um,

656

:

I know we've got to wrap this up.

657

:

I'm just curious, just in the last

few minutes, kind of pastorally,

658

:

we talked a lot about, okay.

659

:

if I'm struggling with.

660

:

I doubt.

661

:

You know what that looks like.

662

:

But just passed orally.

663

:

If somebody comes into your office.

664

:

and They say, okay, this is

what I'm struggling with.

665

:

And so I'm thinking about listeners who

are going to have somebody come into their

666

:

life and say, I'm struggling with this.

667

:

Like aside from the kind of four

practical things that you've given

668

:

that I think are really helpful.

669

:

what's your posture?

670

:

How are you walking

through that with them?

671

:

What does that process look

like for you to walk through?

672

:

Struggles of doubt with somebody else.

673

:

Yeah, that's a good question.

674

:

Well, the first thing I do is affirm them.

675

:

Very often people feel

guilty about doubts.

676

:

And I remind them as I put it.

677

:

Maybe I got this from somebody.

678

:

The doubt is the only soil

in which faith can grow.

679

:

Because if you have certainty, like

we talked about the last episode

680

:

of marketing, repeat all that.

681

:

If you have certainty,

you don't have faith.

682

:

Yeah, you have a site, you

have knowledge, but not Fe.

683

:

By its nature.

684

:

can only grow when you don't

have certainty, which applies.

685

:

You will have doubt.

686

:

So I hate when people feel

guilty about having doubts.

687

:

To me, that's just a fact that

they're committed, but their

688

:

mind is also engaged in it.

689

:

Yeah, there are some people who.

690

:

Uh, for whatever reason.

691

:

follow.

692

:

Christ and follow the church without

really thinking about it too much.

693

:

And that's fine.

694

:

I'm not there to judge them, but

I think it's great when people do.

695

:

And when you do follow Christ with

your mind, And that just with your will

696

:

or your heart, you will have doubts.

697

:

You'll have questions.

698

:

So that's what the first

thing I do is affirm them.

699

:

And second, I talked about some of

the things we just talked about here.

700

:

Yeah.

701

:

sometimes very often there'll

be a particular issue.

702

:

Well, you know, I just can't

believe it because I don't

703

:

believe this issue and I'll see.

704

:

I guess what you don't have to believe

that issue in that way to be a believer.

705

:

Let me give you some examples of people

who are really committed to Christ.

706

:

Who don't agree with my interpretation

My church is Interpretation, but

707

:

there are more on your side and there

there's brothers or sisters in Christ.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

So I try to show them in a

practical way, kind of put that.

710

:

Away from that inner

circle, show them this.

711

:

Isn't a house of cards.

712

:

I think that very often is helpful.

713

:

And then third thing I tell them is.

714

:

You know, be patient.

715

:

There were times where

I've had some things.

716

:

Some intellectual problems

with the Bible or Christianity.

717

:

That I was not able to solve

in my mind for many years,

718

:

sometimes, maybe a decade or more.

719

:

But.

720

:

At this stage of my life, I look

back and say, you know what?

721

:

Pretty much, all those things.

722

:

I've come to understand.

723

:

I can be answered in a very godly

and wise way from the scriptures.

724

:

That just because I didn't know how

those things could be true at the time.

725

:

Does it mean.

726

:

That they couldn't be.

727

:

You just met.

728

:

My knowledge and my

wisdom in a certain time.

729

:

We're not able to comprehend it.

730

:

Yeah.

731

:

And I think there are still

some things that maybe I don't

732

:

really understand or fully.

733

:

Um, but I've learned to trust that

I've learned to be okay with that.

734

:

And that's what I've

tried to convey to them.

735

:

Wow.

736

:

Well, thanks.

737

:

Yeah.

738

:

Yeah.

739

:

That can be a very tender.

740

:

spot to be.

741

:

To walk through that with somebody else.

742

:

And, You know, the other,

we've been talking a lot about.

743

:

intellectual questions or

theological or doctrinal questions.

744

:

So it's kind of things

that can lead to sit down.

745

:

I think the other thing that we'll

have to spend future episodes on

746

:

is just experiential challenges.

747

:

When, when people experienced suffering.

748

:

And that leads them to

doubt how to deal with that.

749

:

And of course the church

has, we have a lot of giants.

750

:

On whom's shoulder.

751

:

I don't know how to say it

in the history of the church.

752

:

We have a lot of giants in the

history of the church who have sought

753

:

through, Based on their own experience

and on the experience of others.

754

:

How to think about the nature

of suffering in the world.

755

:

Yeah, we have a lot of

giants are strong people.

756

:

Who've gone through it and they can

carry us until we can walk ourselves.

757

:

Yeah.

758

:

And I think exploring

those questions of, okay.

759

:

How can I believe in God when all

this suffering is present in my

760

:

life and in the world, I think.

761

:

We'll be really good to spend

some time on in the future.

762

:

We'll get there.

763

:

Yeah.

764

:

Yeah, think personally like that

is one of the strongest objections.

765

:

To the existence of God would be.

766

:

The presence of evil and suffering.

767

:

And so just share that with the

listeners, because, as a pastor.

768

:

That is something that is hard.

769

:

True through.

770

:

And so we'll, we'll get there.

771

:

I would say as someone who has studied.

772

:

Some philosophy.

773

:

Who has been a pastor for over 30 years?

774

:

And as someone who has lost a son.

775

:

that is not only one

of the main questions.

776

:

That's an objection to Christianity,

but probably the strongest one.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

So we'll, we'll spend

some time on that one.

779

:

Probably a few episodes, But

this is sufficient for now.

780

:

Yeah.

781

:

Yeah.

782

:

Well, thank you so much.

783

:

I feel like there's a lot of wisdom.

784

:

And those.

785

:

four.

786

:

practical ways that we can

think about, dealing with doubt.

787

:

Especially, the intellectual doubt and.

788

:

All of that.

789

:

Thank you so much.

790

:

My pleasure.

791

:

Yeah.

792

:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio)-1:

Thanks so much for listening.

793

:

If you like what you hear, click follow

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794

:

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795

:

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796

:

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