Episode 4

Faith, Doubt and Certainty

This episode covers the topics of faith, doubt, reason and certainty.

It reminds us that "faith" is more about trust than belief, and that you can have faith and still doubt. It also reminds us that faith is not opposed to reason, and that, indeed, faith without reason is irrational, and not true religious faith.

What is faith opposed to? Certainty.

Listen to find out why.

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): Welcome to

philosophy and faith where our goal is

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to help you navigate your intellectual

and spiritual journey, especially in

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regards to topics like God, faith and

doubt, meaning and purpose and more.

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I'm Nathan Beasley and I'm Daniel Jepson.

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And together we discuss the big

questions that humans have wrestled

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with for thousands of years.

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We're glad you can join us.

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Well, today we're going to take a quick

break from our four worldviews discussion

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to talk about faith, reason, and doubt.

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And I think that this will be a

really, really good pause because it

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just seems like this is really kind

of applicable and relevant thing.

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I think a lot of us struggle with

faith and doubt and that kind of thing.

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And it's a journey, not something

that we just receive perfect

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faith and have no longer doubt.

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Exactly.

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We like that.

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So Daniel, I'm grateful that

you're here to help us discuss and

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think about some of these things.

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Yeah.

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And I like the way you put that, that

faith is a journey, not something

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we either have or we don't have.

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I think we'll probably do this as a two

parter, we'll see how long it goes, about

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the idea of doubts and faith and reason.

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And you were mentioning as we were

talking before that you were thinking of

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a friend who was Uh, going through a lot

of intellectual doubts or struggles there.

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Yeah.

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I think it's, common, being in

my twenties, I have had numerous

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conversations with people about,

the hot button term deconstruction

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and what that looks like.

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Thinking about previously held beliefs

and questioning them and saying, you

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know, don't know if I still believe

those or not, and it's kind of a,

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challenging experience for people,

and, , glad that I can help walk through

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that with others, but I know it's just

in our culture, that's the term, Like

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doubt right is doubt Maybe goes beyond

doubt to actually say no I'm actually

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going to move away from some of these

previously held beliefs and that kind

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of thing But yeah, it's definitely

a definitely common conversation.

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I'm having with people around me.

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Mm hmm Yeah, and I think it's always been

an issue We used to call it losing faith

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or something, but now deconstructing

your faith is a more common term.

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And I think it's kind of helpful,

but anyway, let's dive into this.

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. So just as we begin, I'd love to hear if

you can go ahead and define some terms

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for us as we're talking about faith.

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What does that mean?

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Uh, what does.

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Yeah.

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Can you help us understand those?

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One of the things that can be frustrating

when you're trying to communicate with

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people outside the faith, or sometimes

even inside the faith, is the issue

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of definition, because we're using

definitions as the church tradition

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based upon the Bible has used them,

hopefully, whereas other people

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maybe using a different definition with a

different meaning behind that and that's

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true in regard to faith I think so.

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Let's make sure we define that as a

Believer is using that term because

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that's what we're talking about whether

we have a believing faith or not, right?

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I feel like the common definition I hear

is believing something without seeing.

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Right.

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I've, I've heard people say, yeah, it's

believing something without reason.

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Yeah.

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Believing without reason or yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's very common.

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And I think it's mistaken because

in, in a couple of ways, both

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parts of that are mistaken.

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Believing something without

reason, both parts, the believing

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something and then without reason.

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Let's take the first of those.

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Yeah.

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So, the, Greek word here doesn't exactly

mean belief or believing in something.

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The Greek word is pistis, and , the verb

form of that then is going to be pisteo.

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And pistis has three main ideas,

belief, trust, or faithfulness.

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It can be any one of those, that's

the main idea in a biblical passage.

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But for the most part, the idea of

trust is the central idea of that word.

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So it's not primarily believing

ideas, it's the idea of trusting

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person, so it's not mainly about

believing ideas, but trusting a person.

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Now, that doesn't mean there's

no cognitive element to it.

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It just means that's not the heart of it.

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So, is it more active than cognitive,

I mean, in regards of the trust and

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faithfulness dimensions of that word?

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Right.

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It's active.

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you can't have a, a passive faith in the

biblical sense, but again, it's not so

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much focused on ideas as a person, the

person of Christ in this particular case.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So I'm beginning to see how

that's already different.

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Right.

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Just believing something.

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Because I mean, scripture talks

about even the demons believing.

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Exactly.

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So does that mean that the

demons have faith in God?

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I mean, is that the, I mean, it says

the demons believe and they shudder.

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So.

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So the word can have that idea

of just believing in idea.

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And that's what James is talking about.

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When it says, even the demons

believe in God, but for the most

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part, especially when Paul uses

the term, or when Jesus uses the

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term, it has more the idea of trust.

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Okay.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah.

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And I could see how

there's definitely overlap.

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I mean, if I believe, if you tell

me you're going to do something and

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I believe you, then I trust that

you're going to carry that thing out.

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Exactly.

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And again, you can't trust in Christ

unless you believe certain things about

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him, but that's not the main focus.

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The main focus is on a

relational trust with a person.

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Yeah.

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That's, already beginning to be helpful.

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That's trusting in a person.

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And that does include certain things

about them, but it's not exclusively

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Hey, just believe in the East 10

theses about who Jesus is, and it has

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the idea that trust is also a choice.

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It's a choice based upon a

reason, but it's something

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that you either do or don't do.

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That also points us away from this

idea that faith is just something

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you believe because it makes

sense to you or not at the moment.

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Got you.

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So that is the second part of the,

definition that you're kind of critiquing.

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You said faith is believing something

without reason, and so you say

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believing is not just adhering to a

certain set of, truth claims about

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that, but actually trust in a person.

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And then the second part

of that, without reason.

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So now you're talking about kind of the

interplay between belief and reason.

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The definition of faith as

believing something without reason

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is what I'm arguing against here.

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Right.

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Both on biblical as well as,

I think, logical grounds.

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So let's talk about that.

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2 Corinthians 5.

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17 is a great verse.

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It talks about this.

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It says, We walked by faith, not sight.

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Now, there's a couple

things that this brings out.

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We walked by faith, not sight.

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First of all, the normal Christian walk.

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So, again, it's an

active thing that you do.

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It's a walk.

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And Paul uses that term when he

wants to stress that something

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is continuous and something you

do, it's a part of who you are.

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It's not a one time momentary decision

that I believe some intellectual truth.

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It's a walk of trust.

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And the second thing we see here,

notice how he defines the opposite.

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He doesn't say we walk by faith or trust,

not, not reason, but he says not sight.

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And that's a very different word.

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That's a very different word with a

different meaning in the scriptures.

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Let me give you an example

of how this comes into play.

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So I remember one time I was talking

about this idea of faith and I I

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held my hand out with a clenched fist

and I asked people I was talking to.

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All right.

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Do you believe that I have

a 20 bill in this hand?

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And a lot of people weren't sure how

to respond to that, of course, but one

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person, I think they felt like if they

said yes, that I would give them the 20.

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I didn't think that, but anyway,

but I said, yes, I believe that.

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And then I opened up my hand and showed

them, yes, there was a 20 bill in there.

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And then I made the statement, I

have just destroyed your faith.

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the point I was trying

to make, and I, I think.

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He got the point, was that when

you have immediate certainty or

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evidence of something beyond dispute,

you no longer have faith, you

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have knowledge or you have sight.

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That's what Paul is saying is the opposite

of faith, is this certainty by immediate

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sense experience that something is true.

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So when Paul's talking about this,

he's not saying we don't have reasons

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for what we believe, Paul had reasons.

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He had direct experience

according to his own testimony.

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He had this dramatic religious experience

where he saw a vision of Christ himself.

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He also had all the reasoning of

the Old Testament that he relied

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on again and again to show that

Christ was who he said he was.

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When he talked to the Greeks,

say, in Acts 17, he relied

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on human reasoning and logic.

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He wasn't opposed to reason, but he

recognized The reason, at best, can

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get you to a belief in a knowledge,

but when you're talking about trusting

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a person, especially in this context,

You're going to have to choose to trust

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even though you don't have certainty.

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And that is what he is talking about.

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So it seems like the, the Christian walk

is one that is going to necessarily have,

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it's going to necessarily need faith.

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Yes.

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My, my question that I've been thinking a

lot about is should Christians want sight?

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Should they pursue sight?

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I mean, to me that makes it easier.

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So should we pursue sight?

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Should we want that?

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I would say only to the degree that God

knows that we need it in our particular

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case, but probably it's not a goal

that we should pursue for itself.

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And let me give you a

couple of reasons for that.

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So when I look at faith as described

in the New Testament, especially, well,

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the whole Bible, it is not an act of

the intellect alone, but of the will.

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So if it's forced upon you by sight or

certainty, it's no longer an act of the

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will, but only an act of the intellect.

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But do you need faith right

now to believe I'm here?

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No, because you have

sight, you have knowledge.

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Yeah.

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It's not something you can choose to

disbelieve unless you choose to disregard

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the, the idea that your senses can bring

you truth at all, which I think is a

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nonsensical and unsustainable position.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So you don't have faith

because you have sight.

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Yeah.

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In my understanding, faith is a

combination of will and reasoning.

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You cannot have true faith without

both of those elements involved.

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You have to have reason.

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There has to be a reason

for you to believe.

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But you have to recognize, as

Augustine said, that our reasoning

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and our rationality has limits.

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Therefore, I have to also make a

choice to believe what I can't prove.

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So no, I don't think

we should pursue sight.

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I mentioned two reasons.

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Second reason is when

you look at scripture.

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It doesn't seem to convey the idea that

when people had direct sight of God's

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involvement and God's activity, that

it was spiritually healthy for them.

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Like, if you look at the time period

where God spoke dramatically in the

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Exodus and the wilderness laundering,

God showed himself very dramatically.

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He told them what to do, they saw

miracles left and right, and yet that

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generation fell away from God because it

warped their sense of trust in a person.

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And, I won't go into all the

dynamics because I'm not sure how

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they work, but it was a generation

after that who saw very few of those

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miracles that proved faithful to God.

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And in the same way, the people

of Elijah's and Elisha's time who

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saw many miracles of God did not

turn back to God because of that.

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aLl that to say, No, I don't think

you should pursue the idea of sight.

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I believe that God will provide enough

reasoning or evidence for you to make the

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choice without violating your reasoning or

your conscience, but that's all we need.

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So to grow in our spiritual

formation is to deepen our faith,

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which is a trusting act in God or

definitely not opposed to reason.

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But, recognizing the limits of reason

and also as an act of our volition.

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And, in, in the good times

as well as the difficult.

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Right.

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That, , it's trusting in Jesus as

a person to, to be who he is, to be

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who he says he is, and to trust that

he can do what he says he can do.

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And what he's shown himself to already do.

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The analogy I use.

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In my class, sometimes, , very often

there's at least one person who is

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engaged or maybe they're in a relationship

where they hope to be engaged,

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sometimes just recently got married.

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So I say to that person, it's great if

there's someone who's already engaged,

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and I say, okay, let's

think about this scenario.

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You're engaged to this person.

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So think of that person in your mind.

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And then one week before the

wedding, or even two days before

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the wedding, you get an anonymous

note that says your fiancé has been

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cheating on you for the past year.

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And they list two or three people

they've been cheating with.

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Now, they don't give any proof of that.

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It's not like they have, pictures

or audio tapes or something.

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It's an accusation.

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Now, what do you do there?

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Do you believe that letter?

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Do you bring it to your

fiancé, say, in this scenario.

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They completely deny it.

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They're angry and upset just

the way that you would be if

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that letter was directed at you.

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In other words, you look at their response

and it's not guilt, it's indignation

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that they were even accused of this.

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Now, it's two days before the wedding.

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You go through with it.

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I usually make this more pointed.

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If you believed in those accusations,

would you go ahead with the wedding?

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No, no way.

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No, I wouldn't either.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And I haven't had any.

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I've never had a student in my class

yet say, yes, I'll go ahead and do it.

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They all say that.

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And that's, that's rational, right?

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But at the same time, if you just have

it and you don't have that knowledge

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one way or another, who sent it, are

you going to go ahead with the wedding?

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It's two days from now.

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You have got 48 hours to

decide what do you do?

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That's where you make a faith

decision to trust in a person, even

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though you don't have certainty.

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Because the only way you

could have certainty that they

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haven't been cheating on you.

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is if you videotape them 24

seven, which would be really

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creepy and very impractical.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And the other thing this gets across

is, if you had that certainty, if you

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videotape them 24 seven, ultimately

, when you're before that altar, you

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would be saying yes to an idea.

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that they had been faithful

to you rather than a person.

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So that's what I'm trying

to get across here.

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You have reasons to believe that person.

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You have spent the last

year, 2 years, 3 years.

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However long with them.

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You have seen the kind

of person that they are.

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Have learned to trust their word.

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So you are not believing

them without a reason.

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You're just choosing to believe

them and trust them without

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certainty, without sight.

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Yeah, and it seems to me to be

better to be able to trust your

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spouse based on their character.

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If you have evidence that she hasn't

cheated, that's not the same as

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having confidence in her character

that she is a faithful person.

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And I would rather have confidence

that she's a faithful person.

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I think that that goes the same way

with, , our relationship to God knowing

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that his character is good and being

able to trust in that is a really

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powerful thing, even when things don't

go super well here because that can

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give us the ballast and the tempest.

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Wow.

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Very poetic.

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But yeah, that's a good, that's

a good way of thinking of that.

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So to sum up that part there I

would say a good definition of

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faith, a working definition.

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It's choosing to believe what

you have reason to believe is

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true, but without certainty.

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Or more specifically, when we're talking

about religious faith or saving faith,

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at least for Christians, saving faith

is choosing to trust and follow Christ

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without certainty, without sight.

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Now, , some of us don't like the

idea of not having certainty.

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Yeah, I get that, but we

do that all the time.

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I had about a skin cancer

this year, and some of it had

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metastasized into a few lymph nodes.

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That was just about six months ago, so

I'm still kind of in treatment for that.

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But I remember, you know, you notice

a spot in your skin that's, you

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feel like, oh, this is different.

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So , I go to a dermatologist, right?

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And then the dermatologist sends

me to a skin cancer specialist.

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And then she examines it,

sends the stuff out to the lab.

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, she interprets the results,

tells me I need to have this

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very expensive surgery procedure.

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I go to the hospital for

that surgery procedure.

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I follow all the things they tell me.

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I submit myself to anesthesia.

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So I'm completely unconscious while people

with knives hover all around me, right?

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And then, you know, you go through

the whole thing, then you go to the

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pharmacy, you get medicines that

you've never verified or tested.

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There are a million ways that

you don't have certainty.

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I have never checked.

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The credentials of those doctors, like Dr.

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Meyer.

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I've never called IU School of

Medicine to verify that she has her

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diploma, like it says on her wall.

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I have to trust in this situation.

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The pharmacy, I can't prove the

pharmacy gave me the right medicines.

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Yeah.

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Whether by ill will or simple mistake, he

could be giving me the wrong medicines.

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Mm hmm.

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I could doubt things

every step of the way.

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But part of the human condition

is that because of our lack of

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comprehensive knowledge, we have to

trust even in important decisions.

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That's a, that's a really good, I mean,

I'm just thinking about that situation.

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Like there are a million different

variables that along the way you could

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say, no, I don't, I don't believe it.

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Right.

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I mean, the diagnosis, the

treatment options you don't have

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to take your medicine because

you don't know what's in it.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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So you're, saying that based on

our limited knowledge as humans, we

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have to trust people, even though

we don't have certainty about.

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Yes.

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Even though we don't have certainty

about their qualifications, their

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character, or their goodwill toward us.

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And so you're making the point

that it's similar trusting in God?

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, Obviously trusting God has higher

stakes, but you know, surgery and

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skin cancer are pretty high stakes.

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Yeah.

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So I'm making the point that the

limits of our human knowledge

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necessitate this kind of trust.

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mean, you still had a

reason to trust your doctor.

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Exactly.

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You had good reason.

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If her diploma on the wall said flunked

IU School of Health, you'd probably,

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probably be less likely to go back.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you could do internet

searches on the person.

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You can, You can make value

judgments based upon what you know

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of people by the time you get to a

certain age hopefully you can buy a

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Microscope check out the medicine.

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Yeah Yeah, anyway, I think we're

running that analogy into the ground.

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Yes.

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Yes So saving faith is choosing to trust

and follow Christ without certainty

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now There's one more part that I really

want to get across in this that kind

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of I think illustrates this a bit And

I, I'm calling this the line versus

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the quadrant, and here's what I mean.

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I'm going to borrow from one of our

atheist friends, Richard Dawkins,

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and he proposed that when we think of

belief in God or not, we're being too

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simplistic and too bipolar in that.

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And instead of a yes, no on off

type of switch, as it were, he

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proposes like a sevenfold scale of

your certainty of belief in God.

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7, if you're at a 7, you absolutely know

without any doubt at all that God exists.

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If you're at a 6, you're fairly

convinced of that, but you recognize

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it's possible to be mistaken.

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If you're at a 5, you believe

that there are better reasons

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for believing in God than not,

but again, you could be mistaken.

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If you're at a 4, you

are completely neutral.

393

:

You look at the evidence and

say, yeah, I could go either way.

394

:

I really don't know.

395

:

If you're at a 3, then you're saying

you believe the arguments against God's

396

:

existence are greater than those 4, but

again, you could be very well mistaken.

397

:

If you're at a two, that's a

little bit stronger version, you're

398

:

almost certain there is no God.

399

:

It's possible, but you're almost certain.

400

:

And then if you're at a one, no,

there's impossible God exists.

401

:

It's a logical impossibility

or some other reason.

402

:

It just could not be the case at all.

403

:

Yeah.

404

:

And I think that's already

helpful because even the way

405

:

that we talk about faith, like

406

:

I have faith or she lost the faith

or I want to share the faith.

407

:

It just seems like it's something that

you either give or receive a deposit of.

408

:

Yes.

409

:

And that's so unhelpful because

in different seasons of life,

410

:

I can be at different numbers.

411

:

Exactly.

412

:

I can be today four or

five and tomorrow six.

413

:

That's a really helpful scale there.

414

:

So I'll put you on the spot here.

415

:

At this stage right now, today,

where are you on that scale?

416

:

Um, what's exactly in the middle?

417

:

Four.

418

:

Four?

419

:

I'd say I'm a, um, probably a six.

420

:

Probably a six.

421

:

I'd say that's where I am too.

422

:

I would say that there are days when I'm

reading scripture and I'm lower than that.

423

:

I'm like, wait a second,

wait a second, wait a second.

424

:

Then he rose from the dead.

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

And I'm like, okay, wait, I'm

actually claiming to believe

427

:

that this guy rose from the dead.

428

:

Or like this Sunday preaching

on, Jesus feeding 5, 000 men.

429

:

So probably women and children

there with five loaves and two fish.

430

:

And I'm doing the math there.

431

:

One loaf of bread for 5, 000 people.

432

:

That means that loaf of bread

has to feed 1, 000 people.

433

:

And just all the questions in my

mind, like, wait, they, surely

434

:

they had more than five loaves.

435

:

Two fish for 5, 000 people.

436

:

That's one piece of

fish for 2, 500 people.

437

:

So I don't know.

438

:

, it's some of these where these stories

are wild and kind of absurd and that

439

:

sort of thing that I think anybody

who's reading them should probably

440

:

pause and back up for a second.

441

:

Yes.

442

:

Interesting that you talked about

reading scriptures sometimes brings

443

:

you from a six to maybe a five or

something, but, and you know what?

444

:

I will admit the same thing.

445

:

Yes.

446

:

But I will also say that more often when

I'm reading scripture, I go to a higher

447

:

level because I see some beautiful truth

there that I'm like, ah, there is no

448

:

way that a mere human came up with that.

449

:

Yeah.

450

:

Do you have that experience as well?

451

:

Yeah.

452

:

Yeah, definitely.

453

:

And there have been times where, I'll

read some persuasive argument and

454

:

maybe I'll go from a six to a five or.

455

:

It may be even a four, or, you

know, you face some tragedy.

456

:

My wife and I have faced in our past with

our son and yeah, that can take a hit.

457

:

Yeah.

458

:

So again, you're not set at one

point and what I'm trying to develop

459

:

here is the idea that you will

naturally go up and down that scale

460

:

a little bit and it is a scale.

461

:

It's not a switch, whether you

have faith or you don't, and then

462

:

if you lose faith, you can never

regain it or something like that.

463

:

So I'm not a bad person?

464

:

No.

465

:

If my faith fluctuates?

466

:

No.

467

:

I think it's normal.

468

:

That's Thank you.

469

:

No.

470

:

No shame.

471

:

No.

472

:

That's just the human condition.

473

:

But let's take that idea, and we'll

take it one step further though.

474

:

Okay.

475

:

Okay.

476

:

So picture that seven folds, . Okay.

477

:

All right.

478

:

So, or a piece of paper in front of you.

479

:

So you've got a horizontal line.

480

:

So that'd be your X axis as it were.

481

:

And then right down the middle

of that, right at the 4, draw

482

:

this vertical line as well.

483

:

And it's got the same set of points.

484

:

Seven at the top, and then you go down.

485

:

So at the bottom, you would be at a one.

486

:

Now, this would be a good

time to ask, what is that?

487

:

Okay.

488

:

So what's the Y axis scale?

489

:

There you go.

490

:

So the Y axis would be what

I would call commitment.

491

:

And here's where I'm going.

492

:

I believe that what's important is not

where you are in the scale as much as your

493

:

your commitment level regardless of

where you are on the horizontal scale.

494

:

So this kind of brings us back to the

beginning definition where you talk

495

:

about faith as an act of volition.

496

:

And not just intellectual intent.

497

:

So is that, is that you or

is that Dawkins as well?

498

:

That's me.

499

:

The y axis.

500

:

Okay.

501

:

So I'll, I'll add a third dimension.

502

:

No, I'm just kidding.

503

:

So we got on the x axis, the, , the, the

Faye, or the certainty is what you said.

504

:

And then on the y axis

there, you've got commitment.

505

:

Right.

506

:

So let me give you just a brief

example, like Mother Teresa of

507

:

Calcutta, is there anyone who you

would give a higher level of commitment

508

:

to that in our time period at least?

509

:

No, probably not.

510

:

So we're going to label her as a seven.

511

:

Seven is you are giving your

life fully to Christ and serving

512

:

the world through Christ.

513

:

Let me define that more fully.

514

:

When I've talked about commitment,

in the Christian belief, I'm

515

:

primarily saying four things.

516

:

Number one, you're committed to

draw close to God through Christ.

517

:

Number two, you're committed to

follow Christ in the sense of thinking

518

:

like Him and doing what He does.

519

:

And then third, you are

embracing Christ's community.

520

:

This isn't a solo project.

521

:

It's a group project, and

God desires it that way.

522

:

Are you talking about the church there?

523

:

Yes, for the most part.

524

:

Okay.

525

:

Okay.

526

:

And then fourth.

527

:

You are committed to partnering with

Christ in blessing the world, seeking

528

:

reconciliation, seeking justice and

justification for people, seeking

529

:

to make the world all that it should

be by promoting the good news, but

530

:

also by showing God's kindness

and care into this world, both for

531

:

people and for creation itself.

532

:

All right, so I'm not

gonna delve into that.

533

:

I'm just trying to explain what

I mean by the word commitment.

534

:

So we're gonna give

Mother Teresa a 7 here.

535

:

A six would be someone who is seeking

these things for the most part, sometimes

536

:

they lapse, a five is someone who's

kind of following Christ in this way.

537

:

, they're committed to Christ a little bit.

538

:

They're doing some things, , and

then a three, a two, a one just ramped

539

:

down the commitment to one is someone

who really is doing nothing at all.

540

:

They are actually doing nothing

because of their commitment for Christ.

541

:

So that's, that would be the, I

was reading, uh, Pew Research has

542

:

a category now of people who are

called non practicing Christians.

543

:

So they're, the ones who say, yeah,

I believe I would claim the identity

544

:

of Christian without practicing.

545

:

I think they defined it as going

to church once or twice a year.

546

:

Yeah, this whole quadrant you would

call, this whole quadrant of the bottom

547

:

right corner as it were, you'd call,

high certainty but low commitment.

548

:

You could call them non practicing

Christians or nominal Christians,

549

:

Christians in name alone.

550

:

All right.

551

:

So that would be in that

lower right quadrant.

552

:

I'm calling that.

553

:

Quadrant three there.

554

:

Look at this in four quadrants based

upon the two, perpendicular lines.

555

:

One is low certainty but high commitment.

556

:

Quadrant two on the top right, is

high certainty and high commitment.

557

:

Quadrant three on the bottom right

is high certainty but low commitment.

558

:

And then quadrant four on the bottom left

would be low certainty, low commitment.

559

:

Can you kind of conceptualize that?

560

:

Is that clear?

561

:

Yeah, that's helpful., if I was at

home listening, I'd probably be.

562

:

Break out a piece of paper or on my phone,

go scribble on my notes because this is

563

:

actually really helpful because it seems

that maybe this is where you're going

564

:

with this, that, commitment, faith as

commitment is what's important here.

565

:

Even though our certainty can fluctuate,

that the goal is to walk by faith.

566

:

So to persist and to pursue, even

though at times knowing that the

567

:

human can, condition is fluctuation

with certainty is, is that right?

568

:

Yeah, pretty much.

569

:

And along with this,, look at the,

X axis, the horizontal scale, the

570

:

scale of certainty, where would you

have to be to be able to actually

571

:

Be a committed Christian or to do

the things of following Christ.

572

:

That's a good question I would maybe

say like two or three and above

573

:

I think I would agree with you I

think that if you're at a one like I

574

:

don't know I don't I don't think so.

575

:

Yeah, although maybe , if you have

seasons of five or six or seven and

576

:

then something happens and you drop

down that far, I think that may be

577

:

the community of people around you,

that you're already plugged into.

578

:

You talk about being part of the

church or some of your community.

579

:

Um, practices I could see reading

the Psalms or something I could

580

:

see even if your certainty really,

really, really dropped down low,,

581

:

some of those particular things

really helping carry that out.

582

:

As long as you, stay connected to the

community of faith and that kind of thing.

583

:

I don't know.

584

:

What do you think?

585

:

I think I kind of agree with you.

586

:

I don't think you could sustain being a

one and being a committed believer, Christ

587

:

follower, be like an atheist Christian.

588

:

Conceptually, I can understand, maybe

some people could argue for them, but

589

:

practically I don't think you could do it.

590

:

But my point here is, I think

you could be a two or a three and

591

:

still be a very committed believer

and follower of Jesus Christ.

592

:

Yeah.

593

:

I think it may be more difficult

in certain times at a two.

594

:

I think you might have more struggles,

but perhaps, perhaps your faith

595

:

choices then become even more valuable

and deeper at the faith in a sense.

596

:

Yeah.

597

:

Wow.

598

:

Wow.

599

:

That's a beautiful thing.

600

:

Yeah.

601

:

And I won't go to the wall on that,

that it's, it's more virtuous to be

602

:

at a two and still make the right

faith decisions or the right faith

603

:

choices or the right Christ commitment.

604

:

But I wonder about that.

605

:

Wow.

606

:

Wow.

607

:

Yeah.

608

:

It certainly seems like the commitment

there is more meaningful because it

609

:

does not come as naturally or easily.

610

:

Yeah.

611

:

I guess that's what I'm getting at.

612

:

Yeah, that's again really helpful because

there are days dipping below that line

613

:

for sure that's a human thing and I

think in those spaces it can be really

614

:

helpful to search out and that kind

of thing and Go read some blog posts

615

:

from your favorite apologists or that

kind of thing, well, that will bring

616

:

us into the part two of this is how

do we handle our intellectual doubt?

617

:

Okay, cool.

618

:

So, um, should we break now and then

get back into it here in a minute?

619

:

Yeah, let's do that Let's make it a

kind of a separate episode because I

620

:

think conceptually it works a little bit

differently First part is kind of defining

621

:

that the second part is more practical

How do you deal with times of doubt and

622

:

uncertainty seemingly lack of faith?

623

:

So we'll talk about that.

624

:

So can you summarize just

where we've gone throughout

625

:

these past 35 minutes or so?

626

:

Sure.

627

:

So the main idea is to help us understand

that faith is not simply believing

628

:

something that you know isn't true or

that you don't have any reason for it.

629

:

Faith, rather, is choosing to trust

a person even without intellectual

630

:

certainty about all the details.

631

:

Even when you have doubts, you could

have doubts at times that Jesus existed

632

:

or that he taught the things he did.

633

:

Or that he was resurrected.

634

:

But that doesn't mean you don't have

a level of faith in your life that

635

:

you can exercise and make a choice on.

636

:

So that's where I'm going with this.

637

:

Well, let's break and then we'll get

into some more of the practicality of it.

638

:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio)-1:

Thanks so much for listening.

639

:

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640

:

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641

:

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642

:

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