Episode 8

Ethics part 1: Theism and Naturalism

Are some things always right and wrong? If so, why? Where does the standard of morality come from?

Theism and naturalism give distinctly different answer to that important questions, as we will discuss.

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio)-1: All right.

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So today we're talking about ethics

in the four great worldviews.

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Daniel.

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Hey, why don't you just

go ahead and situate us.

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What are ethics?

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Why are we talking about it?

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Ethics are very dear to each one of us.

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We all seem to know instinctively

that some things are right and wrong.

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We teach our children the same.

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And yeah, very often we don't,

they'll very deeply into why

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things are right and wrong.

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Are they always right or wrong?

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What's the basis for

making those statements?

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So that's what ethics kind of deals with.

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Sweet and we were talking a little bit

earlier before the podcast started.

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That this is just one of, kind

of the sub categories of what

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philosophers are called value theory.

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Is that correct?

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Right.

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So value theory, or if you want

to use the technical name X.

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Algae thinking of a tree that

has three main trunks or large

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branches going out of that.

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yOu would call that tree value

theory, your axiology in the

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center, you would have ethics.

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That's probably the most important.

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And then to the left of that,

you would have social theory.

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So political science, political theory.

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And then to the right of that,

you would have a statics.

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judgments upon art beauty.

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Those kinds of things.

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And they're all related

because they're all asking the

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question of what's valuable.

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What should we choose in

these different areas?

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Great.

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Okay.

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So what are we going to do

in today's conversation?

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We're going to look at how the four.

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Great rule views.

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Answer the question of what

is right and wrong and what

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makes something right or wrong.

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No, sorry, not the same question, right?

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We're going to, Spend more time on the

as, I mean, atheism, the most prevalent

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and views within our culture, or I should

say, rather be as a man naturalism.

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Naturalism is a.

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Better term than atheism itself, because

the worldview that arises logically

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out of atheism so we're going to

spend more time on those two because.

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Those are going to be the main

options in our culture, at least.

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Yeah.

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So if you haven't listened to our

introductory podcast on the four, great

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worldviews, go back and listen to that.

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Just to frame our conversation.

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We have categorized the four

main worldviews into monotheism.

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Secularism.

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Or naturalism.

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Eastern thought.

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And paganism.

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And these are kind of the four.

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Families.

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Right.

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And underneath each of those

are different categories.

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So not all monotheists are the same.

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Same thing with those who ascribed

to Eastern thought or secularism.

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Naturalism.

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So we're just trying to

provide a framework here

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without spending a millennia.

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Talking through all of the different ways.

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These worldviews kid.

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Right.

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And the reason we talk about this in

terms of, for worldviews, even though

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that's obviously reductionistic and

it's an overview at 40,000 feet.

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Is because when you look at their

basic premise, you see that.

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Though.

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People differ within each one of these.

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They tend to have the

same sort of answers.

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Whereas these questions about,

say ethics about aesthetics,

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about human uniqueness and value.

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Because of those main.

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Viewpoints on the nature of reality.

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And in particular, is there a God

who created the universe or not?

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So for example, Christianity and Islam.

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And Judaism are obviously

separate religions.

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But as we'll see today, when we talk about

ethics, They give the same sort of answer.

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So there was minor, variations,

but on that question of what makes

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something right or wrong or agree.

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So there are one viewpoint.

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, In the same way in Eastern

thought, hinduism and Buddhism

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are different religions.

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And yet when you come to the goal of what

we should do in terms of right or wrong,

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they have some very distinct similarities.

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Especially when you compare them with

the other worldviews or, viewpoints.

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Great.

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So in a second here,

we're going to get into.

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Looking at the question of ethics

through these four great worldviews,

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but as we get into it, I wonder

if you could help us understand.

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the dichotomies.

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Especially as it relates to ethics.

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Of

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objective and subjective.

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Ethics or put another way.

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Universal or relative ethics.

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I think that will be helpful

for the conversation.

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Sure.

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Let's think about two ways

of approaching a truth claim.

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, for example, The statement.

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I like very spicy foods.

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Would you agree with that statement?

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I would.

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Okay.

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How about your wife?

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Probably not.

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Yeah, I didn't think so.

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So what you have there is you have

a statement that is true for you.

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But it started true for her because it is.

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Subjective.

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It depends on the subject

who is making the claim.

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It's relative.

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Because it's relative to

who is making the quaint.

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So in our sense, we're using those

terms subjective and relative.

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Very closely.

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They're not technically fully

synonymous, but for our purposes,

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But if you have a statement, for

example, That E equals MC squared.

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Would you affirm that truth claim?

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I would, would your wife.

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I would hope so.

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Would that say may be true even

if neither you or her affirm.

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Bet.

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I'm not a physicist, but I would think so.

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Would it be true if nobody affirmed that?

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I think so.

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All right.

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Certainly I would, I

would agree with that.

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Yeah.

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So there are some statements

that are universally true.

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They are true, regardless of who you

are, regardless of where you live.

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Regardless of what you're like

there object do, because they

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do not depend on the subject.

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Who is making that statement.

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So that's the main difference here.

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And when it comes to morality,

then the question is, are there.

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Moral judgments, ethical judgements.

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That are objective in universally.

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True.

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Or all, they are simply subjective.

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And relative to the person making them.

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So you aren't meaning that in a way

that's like, okay, it's just relative

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to the person, but this could also be

irrelevant to the cultural context.

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I think it's helpful to point out.

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That the ultimate expression of

that is simple as to this question.

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If humans.

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Had never arrived on the scene.

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Would that still be a true.

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Ethical statement or not.

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If no.

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Then you have something

that's subjective to humanity.

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If yes, then you have an

objective moral standard.

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And I hasten to add here,

we'll talk about this more.

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We are not saying that people.

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I have a different worldview.

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Do not have an object to morality

or that they're not moral.

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The question is whether on

the basis of their worldview.

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in object and morality.

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Logically follows from that.

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If Christianity is true and we're

all made in the image of God.

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We have a moral code built within

us and that doesn't change.

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If we simply deny its existence

or deny God at all, we still

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fundamentally operate that way.

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So.

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A person who is a materialist

in atheist or a pagan.

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I should say polytheist at this point.

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They may all agree that certain

things are right or wrong.

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They may all practice.

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The same types of morality.

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But the question goes deeper.

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Do you have a worldview that's consistent

with saying that this is absolutely.

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Universally objectively right or wrong.

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Okay.

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That's helpful.

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, you ready to get into the

four great worldviews.

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Surely view ethics.

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Cool.

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So let's start with monotheism and again,

the subcategories of this would be.

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Christianity or Judaism or Islam.

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They all kind of have this.

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Metaphysic that there is.

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A God.

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One God who transcends and his creator.

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Separate and distinct from creation.

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So how would they view ethics?

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In human history.

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Model theism is, actually rather unique.

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We don't think so because

we've been born into a culture

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that is mainly monotheistic.

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But if you look at the

history Of human thought.

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You have various religions,

various worldviews, various

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philosophies that regarded God.

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Either as absolute.

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Or as personal.

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So for like Plato, you have God

as the absolute, he is the one.

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And platonic.

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It's the same thing.

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But you don't have a personal God.

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And most of the.

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Polytheistic religions and worldviews.

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You have a God who is personal or gods who

are personal, but they're not absolute.

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they did not create everything.

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They didn't create the universe.

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They don't transcend the universe.

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They're part of the

furniture of the universe.

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Now here's why that's important

when it comes to ethics.

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Monotheism then is able to give

a distinctly different answer.

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That moral standards exist apart

from whatever happens in the world.

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And even if the world or the universe,

the cosmos, however you want to

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define it, even if that never existed.

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There are eternal moral standards

because they're located in

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the nature of who God is.

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So for a theist.

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The standard and the source.

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For an object morality.

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Is the person of God who brought

the universe into existence

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with a purpose and rationality.

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So I'll ask you a question.

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My ethics professor in college asked me.

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It's something good because God says

it is good or just guys say it is good.

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' cause it's good.

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Right?

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And so Plato devoted a whole

dialogue to that questionnaire.

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Actually, it's a very old question.

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And I think for him, it was a very live

question because he conceived as the

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good and the gods is something distinct.

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But for this.

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That's a false dichotomy.

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For the theist, something.

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Is good because it's in the nature of God.

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And so.

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But God himself is the

expression of goodness.

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So those aren't necessarily

two separate things.

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Now we could devote a whole.

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Nother episode on that particular problem.

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And maybe we will, but

that's a short answer.

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Cool.

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Cool.

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Okay.

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So.

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For.

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Monotheism.

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The standard.

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Of object or morality is God.

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And God's will and purpose in creating

this universe and creating mankind.

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The way that it's often expressed

within a particular culture.

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Is going to be a written.

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Guideline like the scriptures.

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The scriptures function to describe

what's right and wrong for humanity.

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Right now, but they're

not the ultimate standard.

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They're simply.

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A reflection.

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For humanity in this time of place.

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Of gods.

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Right in this.

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And so the ultimate standard

is not the scripture itself.

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That's a guideline to point

us to the rightness of God.

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At least that's how I understand it.

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Cool.

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Cool.

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Ready to go on to a secular

thought materialism.

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Yeah, let's go on to materialism.

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So how would materialists

understand the question of ethics?

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Yeah, it's a problem.

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It's a problem.

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So materialism the belief that there

is no God who created the universe,

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that only natural things exist, not

supernatural, that only material exists,

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material being broadly defined as.

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The physical stuff of the universe.

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So material as opposed to, again

some sort of spiritual reality.

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In that worldview.

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The logically consistent belief.

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Is that morality?

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Is subjective.

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And relative.

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And you can pretty easily see why.

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If there is no, God.

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If there's nothing outside

of this universe, no person.

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Then how does morality arise?

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Well, Two things have to happen.

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You have to have the

determination to make.

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Free moral choices.

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And then you have to have

some sort of consciousness.

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Of right or wrong.

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So those two things.

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Develop at some point on this worldview.

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During the course of

humanity's unguided evolution.

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It's not that God.

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As part of this evolutionary

process oversaw that.

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And helped manage mankind, establish that.

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Or guided that it simply happened.

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As a part of this process

by which humanity developed

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from one thing to another.

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No.

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That's true.

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Then by necessity.

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Morality.

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Cannot exist apart from humanity.

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It arose as part of the human process.

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It's then always going to be a relative.

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To humanity itself.

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So that's not.

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Objective then.

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I mean, you, could you say that.

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The ethics are objective

because humans exist.

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Well, humans don't have to exist.

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We won't one time.

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Right?

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We didn't before and they'll will very

likely be a time where we won't again.

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So it's not objective in that sense.

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But you're asking, does

the fact that humanity.

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Has a rose and devote a more

conscious make that objective.

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Yeah.

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It makes it universal perhaps.

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If you do find universal as only humanity.

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But that's not the same thing as an

objective morality, best you could say

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is that there seems to be a universal.

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Moral concept of right or wrong.

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But here's the rub.

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Grant that that's, I

mean, we can grant that.

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That's fine.

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But what's the basis for that?

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Is it.

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Not simply the way things are.

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No one guided this.

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It just came about.

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But how do we get from the fact

that moral judgements exist?

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To the fact that they should exist.

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How do you get from the, is.

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That we are here and we

function in a certain way.

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To an odd, this is how we

ought to function and act.

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That's the question.

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The naturalism has

wrestled with ever since.

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people began thinking through the problem.

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Yeah, I guess I would probably

say that, The Ethics of

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naturalism with correspond to.

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What helps keep humans?

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Alive and flourishing.

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And I think that's a fairly

standard answer on this worldview.

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Whatever is good for humanity.

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I know a couple of problems with that.

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I was going to ask what's wrong with that.

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Cause that sounds okay.

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But it does sound okay.

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Doesn't it.

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Yeah.

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And in one sense from a.

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The basic point of view.

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We also would agree.

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That God's ways are what

is best for humanity?

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So therefore.

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It's not wrong to say that in one sense.

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The question is.

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If there is no God, if morality is

simply arose by whatever natural.

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Or historical means, but without planner

purpose, You have two problems with

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them viewing human flourishing or

betterment as the standard of morality.

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One.

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Is Y.

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Again, we keep coming back

to that question why should

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humanities flourishing be chosen?

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Rather that, that of another species.

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Why is flourishing?

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Good in itself.

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Certainly we like it.

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But that's just a subjective judgment.

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Why is that good?

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without an objective standard

of what is good or bad.

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That's a very difficult question

to answer, and I haven't

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really seen any good answers.

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And again, why human flourishing

then as opposed to the flourishing.

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Uh, some other species or species

altogether, I guess I would say that.

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When humans flourish.

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They can help.

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Promote the flourishing

of other species better.

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And we'd done that though.

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I don't know.

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Probably in some ways we have, I

mean, as we've gotten better with our

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technology and that kind of thing, we're

able to better understand how to care

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for the environment, which promotes

the flourishing of different species.

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I would say that's a nice thought, but

it seems to me that as we have moved from

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our caveman existence to the 21st century,

in spite of the ways that we have.

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Made life better for humans.

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We seem to mess it up

for the other species.

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and then the other problem with

this idea of human flourishing

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and goodness being the standard.

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Who gets to define what's good.

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Who gets to define what's flourishing.

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Those both imply that there's

some standard beyond themselves.

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Right.

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So, if I'm a player in a football game

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And I just plop in the middle of the

field and I have no idea what's going on.

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I will not know what's good

unless someone defines for me.

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Okay.

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The goal is that our team scores

more points than that team.

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Otherwise, I'm just okay.

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We're out here having an exercise

and running into each other.

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So to say that human good.

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Is a standard.

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Is really not to give an answer

at all because you're not

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defining what is good then.

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To say that human

flourishing is the answer.

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Sounds better.

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But again, flourishing implies

that there's a standard of good

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that you're flourishing towards,

or you're progressing towards.

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Yeah, it seems as if.

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The the answer.

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Is, well, you just kind

of know what good is.

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Yeah.

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And I've seen that instinctually as well.

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I don't disagree with that.

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But the question is

not, does an individual.

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Having an innate sense of right and wrong,

but where did it come from if they do.

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Yeah.

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, and what happens when my innate

sense of right and wrong.

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Conflicts.

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With somebody else's right.

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And it certainly has done that.

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Oh, yeah, absolutely.

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You look at the history of

the 20th century and you see.

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Not only people, but whole

cultures who have a different

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conception of what is good.

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For humanity.

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What, what it means to flourish.

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And they killed each other by the

hundreds of millions in the 20th century.

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You have stolen?

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Who.

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By conservative estimates.

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Killed 20 million of his own people,

either directly or by neglectful.

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Uh, foreseeable policy failures.

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higher estimate, we'd be 60 million.

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And yet.

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He was presumably acting on

what he thought was good.

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Um, either for himself or a mistaken

idea of what was good for his country.

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So again, you have a problem?

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And put in another way.

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I hear a lot of people say, well,

human progress as a standard.

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You heard that I have.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I, I like.

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I think we should be progressing.

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Sure.

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Questions though.

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What are we progressing toward?

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And then.

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If we could find that state.

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What happens when we get there.

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Are we then conservatives?

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Because we want to conserve

that perfect state.

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Or as progress by itself, the ideal.

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Hmm.

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So that goes back to that.

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Why is that state chosen

rather than some other state.

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Because certainly not all people

would agree that that's progress.

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The closer you get to that state.

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Which is part of the

reason we had so many.

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Disagreements in our country today.

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Hm.

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It's not self-evident therefore.

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That we all should progress

toward the same goal.

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Sir.

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It's just not something

we all agree on this.

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There has to be proven.

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But without an object of standard

without a purpose for humanity.

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You don't really have a standard

or a basis for saying this is

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the preferable future that we

should all be working towards.

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So within The materialistic perspective.

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Ethics are ambiguous and thus, we kind

of resolve to say, well, they're relative

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based on either individual preference or.

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Society's governing laws and it

doesn't mean that monotheistic

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ethics aren't ambiguous.

474

:

Certainly.

475

:

people within the worldview of.

476

:

You know, Islam would disagree

on what's morally right or wrong.

477

:

But the difference is that They have

what they would call an objective.

478

:

Ethic that.

479

:

Everybody is trying to interpret.

480

:

Right.

481

:

All pointing toward that thing.

482

:

They're all trying to

move toward that thing.

483

:

Even if they do it in perfectly, at least

they can say, Hey, there is something

484

:

that we are trying to move toward.

485

:

And in a materialistic

perspective, There's not really

486

:

that claim yeah, exactly.

487

:

obviously Christians disagree

among themselves and.

488

:

It would disagree with some of our

Jewish or Islamic friends about.

489

:

How to apply that ultimate standard.

490

:

Of . God's personhood and God's will

being the standard of right and wrong.

491

:

We may disagree on how that works out.

492

:

It individual cases.

493

:

Something like football

players may disagree.

494

:

On how they should best operate.

495

:

in a given situation in order to score

or be most likely to score, but that

496

:

doesn't mean we disagree about the

goal or the standard or the meaning

497

:

or the purpose of what we're doing.

498

:

Right.

499

:

They're trying to score.

500

:

Yeah, exactly.

501

:

But that's very different.

502

:

Then seeing that at some

point in human development.

503

:

For whatever reason.

504

:

But without purpose from beyond itself.

505

:

humanity develop.

506

:

Moral standards of right and wrong.

507

:

And now we have to figure out.

508

:

The justification for that.

509

:

And I think the most consistent

naturalists are those who bite the

510

:

bullet and say, There isn't one.

511

:

, there is no objective morality.

512

:

My favorite novel.

513

:

Is by Dustin rescue,

the brother's car Maza.

514

:

The whole thing.

515

:

All 800.

516

:

To 900 pages of it.

517

:

Is structured around this idea.

518

:

Asking the question and

answering the question in a.

519

:

profound work of psychological fiction.

520

:

This question.

521

:

If there is no, God is

everything permitted.

522

:

And his answer is yes.

523

:

And that appears to be the reason

he moved away from atheism to.

524

:

believe in Christianity.

525

:

How could he get there?

526

:

Because surely there are

atheists listening who would

527

:

say no, no, no, no, no.

528

:

That's not true because

I don't believe in a God.

529

:

And I don't believe that

everything is permissible.

530

:

Well,

531

:

he's a very deep man

who thinks very deeply.

532

:

And wisely about the

consequences of ideas.

533

:

And most of us don't to be honest,

most of us inhale our values from

534

:

the, from the world around us.

535

:

And we don't necessarily.

536

:

line them up with our underlying beliefs.

537

:

But there are so many do.

538

:

And they show us that there are

logical consequences to ideas.

539

:

But still I'm pushing back on that because

it, I would, I would say that there are

540

:

probably very few atheists who had say.

541

:

Okay.

542

:

I don't believe in God.

543

:

I believe in just the natural world.

544

:

And yet.

545

:

Not everything is permissible.

546

:

Just, I just, obviously not

everything is permissible.

547

:

That's fine.

548

:

But who doesn't permit it?

549

:

Themselves or the government.

550

:

NATO.

551

:

I don't know.

552

:

And if they changed their mind

or the government changes,

553

:

is it permit permitted then?

554

:

I think so.

555

:

So it is permitted.

556

:

Perhaps.

557

:

I mean.

558

:

There is there's still right and wrong.

559

:

Whether or not somebody

says it is, it's just.

560

:

We just know it like.

561

:

Well, he, and again,

he wasn't saying that.

562

:

People who reject belief in God,

then act as if nothing has permitted.

563

:

He's making the case.

564

:

That logically.

565

:

It follows.

566

:

And that was his main critique of

the west is that we were moving.

567

:

Towards removing God.

568

:

As a foundation of our thinking,

but we have not wrestled.

569

:

Still with what that all means.

570

:

And the other person who really

developed this is Frederick Nietzsche.

571

:

It was just a little

bit after those Debecki.

572

:

= I think he was.

573

:

Perhaps the most consistent.

574

:

Atheist.

575

:

Most consistent naturalists

and the history of philosophy.

576

:

He was willing.

577

:

To bite the bullet.

578

:

And look at the consequences

of a belief in God.

579

:

Or is he called it?

580

:

You know, we, we have killed God.

581

:

God is dead.

582

:

He, he doesn't mean that in the sense

of God once was, and now died, but in

583

:

Western thought we had done away with God.

584

:

But we won't know for a hundred or

200 years, the consequences of that.

585

:

This is what he wrote

586

:

one knows of my demand of philosophers

that they've placed themselves beyond.

587

:

Good and evil.

588

:

And that they had this illusion

of moral judgment beneath them.

589

:

There are no moral facts, whatever.

590

:

Moral judgment has this in common.

591

:

With religious judgment.

592

:

That it believes in

realities, which do not exist.

593

:

Morality is only an interpretation

of certain phenomenon.

594

:

Our more precisely a misinterpretation.

595

:

Moral judgment belongs as

does religious judgment.

596

:

Uh, to a level of ignorance at

which even the concept of the

597

:

real, the distinction between the

real and the imaginary is lacking.

598

:

So that at such a level.

599

:

True., do you know, it's nothing but

things which we call today, imaginings.

600

:

To this extent, moral judgment

is never to be taken literally.

601

:

As such, it never contains

anything but nonsense.

602

:

Can you help us understand

what he's saying there?

603

:

Sure from his perspective, once you

do away with any sense of religion.

604

:

Any sense of God, then you also do a way

with the foundation of moral reasoning.

605

:

That you can't have a moral reasoning.

606

:

Without God.

607

:

He was an atheist.

608

:

He rejected God.

609

:

Okay.

610

:

That he hated Christianity.

611

:

He railed against a consistently.

612

:

Uh, on various levels and for various

reasons, But he was honest enough to know.

613

:

That, that wasn't simply a rejection

of one small individual belief.

614

:

It changed fundamentally how humanity.

615

:

Has to think in this world.

616

:

And so he was okay with that.

617

:

Yeah.

618

:

That's interesting.

619

:

So, again, I'm not.

620

:

Telling.

621

:

Atheist what they have to

believe her or anything.

622

:

I'm just describing the fact that.

623

:

Naturalism has had a very difficult time.

624

:

Giving an object at standard

for right and wrong.

625

:

Once you discard the notion of God.

626

:

I'm not saying there

aren't people who tried.

627

:

But.

628

:

This is very much a weak spot.

629

:

Yeah, you're also not saying that.

630

:

Somebody who's.

631

:

Uh, naturalist can't be a moral person.

632

:

They can still do good things and do

bad things, just like anyone else.

633

:

Sure.

634

:

Because I believe we're

all created in God's image.

635

:

So we have that.

636

:

In built morality.

637

:

And that sense of right or wrong.

638

:

Really, if you look at the ethics of

say the humanist manifesto, which was

639

:

red from an atheistic or materialistic

point of view, They're not really

640

:

that far different than Christianity.

641

:

On a few points, especially the

value of humility, meekness.

642

:

And self-sacrificing love.

643

:

There's a bit of a difference,

but for the most part, they're

644

:

still going to say don't lie.

645

:

Why.

646

:

murders wrong.

647

:

Most of them would say adultery is wrong.

648

:

That's not the question.

649

:

The question is.

650

:

Do you have an object?

651

:

You.

652

:

Standard for making that statement

based upon your worldview.

653

:

Yeah.

654

:

Cause that's a pretty

significant question.

655

:

And why are those things good or wrong?

656

:

Yeah.

657

:

Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone): Okay.

658

:

That wraps up part one.

659

:

Where to recorded more than this,

but I'm going to separate this out.

660

:

Into a second episode.

661

:

' cause we'll be dealing in that

one with the idea of ethics.

662

:

Based upon the ideas of Eastern thought

And then also paganism slash polytheism.

663

:

So we'll have that up soon.

664

:

That'll be ethics episode two

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