Episode 15

God, Time and Eternity

A discussion about the nature of time and of God's eternity, especially about whether God's eternity means simply everlasting duration or atemporality. We also discuss theoretical physics, prayer, and Bruce Almighty.

Transcript
Speaker:

Daniel Jepson.

2

:

Hey, good to see you again, Nathan.

3

:

Good to see you.

4

:

How you doing today?

5

:

I'm good.

6

:

My voice is a little

bit lower than normal.

7

:

I like it sounds good.

8

:

Yeah, I'm hoping it helps

me sell more profound.

9

:

Yeah, it gives you a

deeper vibe all around.

10

:

Yeah.

11

:

That's what I'm going

for here, which is good.

12

:

And we need it today because

this is a pretty deep.

13

:

concept.

14

:

We're going to be talking about.

15

:

It's as deep as they come, I guess.

16

:

Why don't you introduce it for us?

17

:

Where are we talking about today?

18

:

We're going to be talking about the

concepts of time eternity and God.

19

:

Nice.

20

:

you have a little bit of

history with this topic.

21

:

A little bit.

22

:

I wrote my master's thesis

about 140 pages, I guess.

23

:

Um, the relationship between God and time.

24

:

So I'm going to be plagiarizing

myself a little bit.

25

:

I expect quotes and, uh, footnotes

will, there'll be quotes,

26

:

but I'll be recording people.

27

:

I quoted in here, like a Guston announcer.

28

:

No, no, no.

29

:

I'm saying you should quote yourself.

30

:

Well, uh, yeah, usually you want to quote

people who have some sort of authority.

31

:

Maybe not.

32

:

All right.

33

:

Cool.

34

:

So gods.

35

:

eternity and relationship

time and all of that.

36

:

Well, let's dive in.

37

:

We've been talking in the last few weeks.

38

:

About knowing God.

39

:

And we've taught the first week.

40

:

If you remember right about the ways

we might know God in the second week,

41

:

we talked about the problem of knowing

God, because he is so transcendent.

42

:

From our universe and so

different than what we are.

43

:

So how can our knowledge be.

44

:

True about him.

45

:

the last episode we talked about God

and his relationship to the universe.

46

:

And today we're going to expand upon

that by thinking about one part of our

47

:

universe and God's relationship to its.

48

:

And that is the concept of time.

49

:

few things that are more commonplace

to us and a deeper part of our life.

50

:

Then the way we experienced

time, but I think God doesn't

51

:

experience it the way that we do.

52

:

Yeah.

53

:

Okay.

54

:

So this is going to be a mine.

55

:

It's going to be a mind bender episode.

56

:

I think.

57

:

Yeah, maybe.

58

:

So, Let's let's kind of talk about.

59

:

Time.

60

:

you start us off with the definition?

61

:

Maybe?

62

:

Well, like Augustan said, I know what time

is, but if you asked me what time is that?

63

:

I can't tell you.

64

:

but I think we have a common sense

notion that time is kind of like

65

:

this arrow that stretched out.

66

:

Uh, both backwards and forwards of

where at a certain place upon that.

67

:

I think that's the way most

people would conceive of that.

68

:

.

I remember in college, one of my friends came out to me, a guy that I

69

:

was pretty close with and he, he said,

I think I have a definition of time.

70

:

And I said, oh yeah.

71

:

He said, yeah, the progression of entropy.

72

:

Well, that's one way to do.

73

:

I thought that was a pretty

good definition at 18.

74

:

I dunno if he got that

somewhere, but yeah.

75

:

I thought that was pretty good.

76

:

Yeah.

77

:

I can see that.

78

:

More, especially, I'd like

us to focus on the idea.

79

:

Of eternity.

80

:

Because I think eternity will help us

understand time a little bit better.

81

:

Now we talked about Psalm

90 verses one through two is

82

:

kind of laying the foundation.

83

:

Where, some of the things we'll

be talking about, why don't you go

84

:

ahead and read that if you would.

85

:

Yeah.

86

:

It says, Lord, you have been arch

welling place throughout all generations

87

:

before the mountains were born, or

you brought forth the whole world

88

:

from everlasting to everlasting.

89

:

You are God.

90

:

That idea of the Arbor lastingness or

the eternity of God has always been

91

:

a part of the Hebrew or Christian

understanding about who God is.

92

:

The question that has come about,

though, when you think more about

93

:

it is what exactly does that mean?

94

:

That God is eternal.

95

:

And in particular, that

can mean one of two things.

96

:

That'd be more, but this is the

way it's usually thought of.

97

:

One can be that God is everlasting.

98

:

In the sense that he has always been here.

99

:

He exists with time, the same way that

we do, he experiences at the same way.

100

:

But he had no beginning in time.

101

:

So he extends backward all the way.

102

:

The extends.

103

:

Forward all the way.

104

:

And that's often when people

think Of God's eternity.

105

:

The other way to understand eternity.

106

:

Is to view God now that's existing along

the arrow of time and completing it even.

107

:

But as existing outside of that, and even

originating that arrow of time as it were.

108

:

And so we would call this.

109

:

Uh, temporal you turn ality.

110

:

Uh, is a negation word, right?

111

:

So just like atheist is someone who

doesn't believe in God that like at the

112

:

instance, Uh, temporal means, we're saying

that God does not experience temporality.

113

:

The sequence reality that we have.

114

:

Yeah, that's deep.

115

:

I'm trying to understand what that could.

116

:

Look like, because this gets at

kind of the problem of knowing

117

:

God that we talked about earlier.

118

:

Like all that we know is temporality.

119

:

So what could that look like?

120

:

Or, I mean, do you, do you have

a metaphor or an image of what

121

:

that could look like our way to

think about that that can help us.

122

:

Yeah, basically.

123

:

If you apply the analogy.

124

:

How we understand God not being in space.

125

:

So when we talk about God

not being limited by space,

126

:

but that he is everywhere.

127

:

His omnipresence, we would say he

does not have spatial location.

128

:

So he's not in Indiana versus Texas.

129

:

And also he doesn't

have spatial extension.

130

:

So he doesn't take up a certain amount

of space, but he's non bodied being.

131

:

In the same way.

132

:

To say the guys who turtle in this

way is saying, first of all, that God

133

:

does not have a temporal location.

134

:

So he is not in 1950 and he's

not in:

135

:

And second of all that he does

not have its stitch and within

136

:

time, In other words, duration.

137

:

So when we think of other

things, for example, world war

138

:

II, Lasted about six years.

139

:

2 39 and 1945.

140

:

And we can think of our own life.

141

:

Our childhood or the years

that we were in college.

142

:

Those things have a duration to them.

143

:

So when we're saying that God is

our temporal the most basic sense.

144

:

He is not located anywhere

within the time-space continuum.

145

:

And he has no extension

in either time or space.

146

:

So he has no beginning and no end.

147

:

Exactly.

148

:

Okay.

149

:

But more than that.

150

:

That he is actually outside of time.

151

:

Yeah, and that's tough.

152

:

Cause we like we experienced got in time.

153

:

We said that they've had any

kind of experience with God.

154

:

Like they can, they can

put a date and time on it.

155

:

Sure.

156

:

So.

157

:

Trippy.

158

:

Yeah, it's difficult because all

of our experiences are in time.

159

:

And therefore, if God's not in time,

then . One of the other thing that's

160

:

true then is that God does not

experience temporal sequence reality.

161

:

One thing occurring after or before.

162

:

Another thing.

163

:

And along with that.

164

:

God has not experienced

temporal causation.

165

:

One thing existed before another

thing and therefore causing it.

166

:

And that's a little bit more difficult to

understand, especially bras who that's,

167

:

the only way we experience things.

168

:

So does that mean that

like God is experiencing.

169

:

Time all at once, like he's

experiencing:

170

:

3010, like.

171

:

All.

172

:

At one time.

173

:

or the things in the future,

he can actually use to affect

174

:

the things in the past.

175

:

Because he's outside of that.

176

:

And I mean, we aren't, things

have to happen in order, right.

177

:

Yesterday effects today, which

affects tomorrow, but God

178

:

doesn't necessarily have to be.

179

:

Working in I'm going to say no one.

180

:

Yes.

181

:

To that question because there's

actually two questions there.

182

:

No, I don't think it would be good

to talk about God experiencing

183

:

all things at the same time.

184

:

Because for us that's just a sensory

overload, we can picture that.

185

:

And that applies again, that God is

in time, but he has experiences all of

186

:

these things simultaneously as it were.

187

:

That's probably not the best

way to think about it because.

188

:

It's still kind of assumes gods in time.

189

:

Yeah.

190

:

Kind of.

191

:

They've been away.

192

:

That's what I'm trying to get at.

193

:

Yeah.

194

:

As I was asking the question, I was like,

it's still kind of the same framework of

195

:

like, okay, God's still experiencing this.

196

:

You know, he might experience

it all in 30 seconds instead

197

:

of, Ton of years, but right.

198

:

Right.

199

:

Exactly.

200

:

But in the second part, I

think you're onto something.

201

:

And this part will come back to

you because I think it can help us

202

:

understand a lot of things about

the Christian life and about God.

203

:

I like us.

204

:

I don't think it's true of God.

205

:

That causation only

works one way as it were.

206

:

For him, we wouldn't really

say it works backwards because

207

:

again, he is outside of time.

208

:

But rather causation doesn't

have a time element to it.

209

:

So from the way we experience it.

210

:

there is something.

211

:

that we are going to

experience in the future.

212

:

But somehow God is weaving it.

213

:

Ted.

214

:

Impact my present.

215

:

Possibly.

216

:

Or more, there are certain things

about you that are just eternally true.

217

:

So even apart from future or past.

218

:

And that somehow God is able to interact

with that in ways that we experienced

219

:

sequence reality, but he doesn't..

220

:

We experienced them in one way.

221

:

And we've you causation then in one way.

222

:

But we don't have to

assume that that's the way.

223

:

The God experiences or

deals with those things.

224

:

All right.

225

:

So let's talk about this

timeless tradition person.

226

:

Then we'll kind of go back to,

explaining why I believe it's true.

227

:

First of all the idea that God is timeless

in the sense of being outside of time.

228

:

So not just existing everlastingly

of unceasing duration, but actually

229

:

having a, an existence as our temporal.

230

:

This is going back at least to Augusta.

231

:

So Augustin's writing.

232

:

You know, fourth century.

233

:

And he has a long section

on God's timeless desk.

234

:

And he comes to the conclusion.

235

:

That God does not exist on the

scale of time, but that he created

236

:

time when he created the universe.

237

:

Let me just summarize a quote or two.

238

:

The world and time both

have one beginning.

239

:

The world was made, not in time,

but simultaneously with time.

240

:

So, and then as he ridicules

the idea that God waited for a

241

:

while before created the world.

242

:

Another great thicker the church

Anselm in the 11th century.

243

:

wrote this.

244

:

That was not then yesterday

nor without be tomorrow.

245

:

But yesterday, and today and tomorrow

though art, or rather neither yesterday,

246

:

nor today, nor tomorrow without art.

247

:

But simply thou art outside all time.

248

:

But yesterday and today and tomorrow

have no existed except in time.

249

:

But though, although

nothing exists without time.

250

:

Nevertheless does not exist within it.

251

:

So these guys are writing again, Augustan.

252

:

You know, over 1500 years ago.

253

:

And He was saying at the

time began with the universe.

254

:

Both.

255

:

Yes.

256

:

Another great Christian philosopher and

time has Aquinas had the same position.

257

:

And most modern theologians.

258

:

Most Christian philosophers or

religion have also endorsed this idea.

259

:

It's so interesting.

260

:

That you said.

261

:

I guess then ridiculed the idea

that God just waited around

262

:

for a while before creating.

263

:

Cause that's kind of

totally hive envisioned it.

264

:

Hmm.

265

:

don't know if I'm alone in that, but it's

kind of like, God just kind of existed

266

:

and I don't know what they were doing.

267

:

But they were hanging

out having a good time.

268

:

And then they decided to create the world.

269

:

Yeah.

270

:

There's a funny story about that.

271

:

The anecdote is that, an opponent

of Christianity was kind of mocking.

272

:

And, said, well, What was God doing all

that time Before he created the universe.

273

:

And supposedly according to the

antidote to Guston's answer was.

274

:

He was taking time to create help

where people have irrelevant.

275

:

Right.

276

:

Questions like that.

277

:

That was pretty funny.

278

:

I think of that scene in the shack.

279

:

William Paul Young's buck.

280

:

Fictional buck where I don't even remember

the main characters name, but he goes out

281

:

into that the shack there and meets the.

282

:

portrayal of the Trinity and they're

all hanging out and friends and

283

:

everything, and that's the vision

I get to them hanging out before.

284

:

Yeah.

285

:

And that anecdote though is not true.

286

:

Yeah, it gets to never said that.

287

:

Impact, what he said was the

question is wrongly stated because

288

:

time began with the universe began.

289

:

So there was not, a period

of God waiting before that.

290

:

Is that true?

291

:

is it possible to know I see how the,

the question assumes temporality on God,

292

:

which is why it's a faulty question.

293

:

Irrelevant and irreverent,

I guess, or whatever.

294

:

But how can we really know?

295

:

Or is it just in the realm of philosophy?

296

:

How can we roll?

297

:

You know what?

298

:

That God is timeless.

299

:

Yeah.

300

:

I think this is one of those where

the scripture is not going to give us.

301

:

A definitive analysis of

whether God's eternity.

302

:

Means is everlasting this within

time or his art temporality.

303

:

That is to go beyond what the

scripture wants to teach us about.

304

:

God.

305

:

But whenever Christian theologians

have begin thinking about the

306

:

implications of creation, like a

Gustin, they've come to this conclusion.

307

:

So I think the reason that they've done

that partly is because it made sense.

308

:

It was insightful to them.

309

:

The time would be part of

creation rather than creation

310

:

being within time as it were.

311

:

We'll come back to that idea.

312

:

But it made sense to them from

God's total creation of all things.

313

:

Because if that wasn't the case, then

you would have to ultimate things.

314

:

You would have God.

315

:

And you would have time.

316

:

and they had such a high view

of God in his creation that

317

:

there's no, that can't be.

318

:

If creation is creation of nothing.

319

:

If there's only one absolute

being or one absolute substance

320

:

or one absolute ultimate reality.

321

:

There has to be God alone.

322

:

There can't be two things.

323

:

Time is this Dean alongside of God.

324

:

So that was the reasoning.

325

:

And then they also felt that

it worked better with the idea

326

:

of God knowing all things.

327

:

Because if God is within time, Say he is.

328

:

In the same time that we are.

329

:

But he just existed all the way back.

330

:

It becomes difficult to know how

he can know the future, perfectly

331

:

like descriptors claim that he does.

332

:

What's really interesting.

333

:

Is that modern physics now

agrees with that entirely.

334

:

Hmm.

335

:

agrees with what Agrees with the idea.

336

:

The time in the universe are not

distinct and that the universe.

337

:

And time began together.

338

:

Or that you cannot have

time without the universe.

339

:

Oh, okay.

340

:

So they're agreeing exactly

what the Gustine are wrote.

341

:

You know, 1500 years ago.

342

:

Uh, this is Stephen Hawking.

343

:

He writes.

344

:

Before 1915.

345

:

Space and time were thought

of as it fixed arena.

346

:

In which events took place.

347

:

But which was not affected

by what happened in it.

348

:

This was true, even at the special

theory, relativity bodies moved forces,

349

:

attracted and repelled, but time and

space simply continued unaffected.

350

:

It was natural to think the

time is space went on forever.

351

:

The situation, however, is quite different

in the general theory of relativity.

352

:

Space and time are now dynamic quantities.

353

:

When a body moves or forest acts.

354

:

It affects the curvature

of space and time.

355

:

Space and time not only fat, but

also are affected by everything

356

:

that happens in the universe.

357

:

Just as one cannot talk about

events in the universe without

358

:

the notions of space and time.

359

:

So in general relativity.

360

:

It becomes meaningless to talk about

space and time outside the limits.

361

:

Of the universe.

362

:

As one, physicist, Paul Davids puts it.

363

:

Time is not simply there, but is

itself part of the physical universe.

364

:

And then he adds a God who did not

create time, create a space, neither.

365

:

Can you, boil that down?

366

:

help me understand Both of

those guys are saying sure.

367

:

One of the truisms of modern physics,

Because the theories of relativity have

368

:

been so well accepted and confirmed.

369

:

Is that time itself and space

themselves are not these empty

370

:

containers or this field.

371

:

In which the universe exists,

but they are part of the fabric.

372

:

So time and space are simply ways that

this universe interacts with itself.

373

:

Because of that.

374

:

It doesn't make any sense

to view time as an arrow.

375

:

And this some point within

that arrow, the universe began.

376

:

Rather the universe began

and then time began.

377

:

sequentially or at the same

universe and time began together

378

:

at the beginning together.

379

:

Okay.

380

:

So there.

381

:

Because time is just one

aspect of the universe.

382

:

Okay.

383

:

so They're relative to each other.

384

:

Yes, because space and

matter exists, time exists.

385

:

Right?

386

:

Vice-versa.

387

:

Yes.

388

:

So if the universe did not

exist time without exist.

389

:

Okay.

390

:

Wow.

391

:

And you said physicists have.

392

:

figured that out, like with math..

393

:

Right.

394

:

It's just the general

theory of relativity.

395

:

which has been proven

now for a hundred years.

396

:

So That's Einstein.

397

:

Right.

398

:

Yes.

399

:

So you're saying that in the 20th century,

400

:

Albert Einstein confirmed

what Saint Augustan.

401

:

argued for.

402

:

know, in Northern Africa and

for third and fourth century.

403

:

Yes.

404

:

That's, that's kind of incredible.

405

:

Actually.

406

:

It is.

407

:

Wow.

408

:

It is.

409

:

Yeah, I Gustin had came

to the same conclusion.

410

:

He just didn't have the math.

411

:

But what he had was the

scriptures and then the logical

412

:

implications of the scriptures.

413

:

Wow.

414

:

that's really cool.

415

:

It is.

416

:

And I don't think people

talk about that very much.

417

:

Hm.

418

:

Yeah.

419

:

Okay.

420

:

So that's super fascinating.

421

:

How does that relate to proving

God is timeless or temple.

422

:

Well, The only way then.

423

:

Unless you rejected

modern physics altogether.

424

:

The only way to argue

that Haim is infinite.

425

:

Is to argue that the

universe is infinite as well.

426

:

But that is not a Christian position.

427

:

Krisha position is that the universe.

428

:

Is a creation of God.

429

:

It's finite.

430

:

It's not ultimate.

431

:

, I'm just thinking like,

Christian perspective.

432

:

There is a beginning, but the big bang

also sounds like it beginning as well.

433

:

Yes, the big bang is a beginning.

434

:

And it's for that reason.

435

:

That for the first half of the 20th

century, even up until the:

436

:

You had atheist physicist who

argued against the big bang.

437

:

So especially in the Eastern

European countries, which were

438

:

officially communist, they

argue for a steady state theory.

439

:

They argued that there was no big

bang because they knew that that

440

:

implied the idea of creation.

441

:

And they hated that idea.

442

:

Creation or at least

some, kind of beginning.

443

:

Right.

444

:

So at least to beginning.

445

:

Okay.

446

:

And the question that is left unresolved,

then from a natural perspective.

447

:

if you disregard the idea of

creator is of course, why and

448

:

what brought that into being.

449

:

and how do you get something

from nothing, right.

450

:

And they would say you don't get

something from nothing because

451

:

the matter would be eternal.

452

:

So, but somehow the matter.

453

:

Infinitely dense, a singularity.

454

:

Exploded into the university

that we have now, but the

455

:

matter itself was already here.

456

:

So if the matter was here,

then time would have been here.

457

:

No.

458

:

Time began with the big bang.

459

:

Okay.

460

:

But time, I thought time and matter.

461

:

This is so trippy time

and matter or relative.

462

:

No time and space a relative.

463

:

Time and space are part of the way the

universe is created at the big bang.

464

:

Okay.

465

:

Right.

466

:

So before that.

467

:

you would have to posit matter

existed unless you believe that

468

:

something arose out of nothing.

469

:

Which doesn't make rational sense

to us and certainly not scientific.

470

:

So you'd have to pause it matter was here.

471

:

but what we know about that matter.

472

:

Is nothing.

473

:

Because the laws of physics and

even the concept of time and space

474

:

itself, don't apply to that matter.

475

:

That's why it's called a singularity

because it's so singular.

476

:

There's nothing past that,

that we can't even think about.

477

:

Okay.

478

:

You said that they're Eastern European.

479

:

Physicists who argued for a

steady state model because.

480

:

the cosmos, having the beginning.

481

:

Can somehow point to.

482

:

The existence of a creator, right?

483

:

Now obviously many people today

who are businesses are not,

484

:

believers are not Christians.

485

:

but the steady state advocates

Knew that the idea of a beginning

486

:

of the universe, Mack of creation.

487

:

And they wanted to avoid that completely.

488

:

Wow.

489

:

Wow.

490

:

But then Einstein comes.

491

:

I was around Einstein comes

around and, Points to.

492

:

A.

493

:

math backed.

494

:

Beginning of the universe.

495

:

Right.

496

:

And actually, it was almost 40 or 50

years Before all the scientific community.

497

:

Came to a consensus and agreed

with that because there were

498

:

people who did not like the idea.

499

:

But eventually when they began

measuring background radiation of

500

:

the universe, the rate of expansion

of the universe, the evidence became

501

:

so conclusive that they had to.

502

:

So there's not really.

503

:

much weight given to

the solid state model?

504

:

No.

505

:

Okay.

506

:

Steady state.

507

:

Yeah.

508

:

Steady state.

509

:

Sorry, solid state is a computer science.

510

:

Okay.

511

:

Yeah.

512

:

The upshot of that is.

513

:

Again, That modern physics and Augustan.

514

:

Both agree.

515

:

Um, the universe had a beginning and that

beginning was also the beginning of time.

516

:

Therefore.

517

:

We're Christians.

518

:

It seems to me.

519

:

Almost inescapable to understand God's.

520

:

eternity as a non temporal.

521

:

eternity.

522

:

That he does not exist in time.

523

:

Like we do.

524

:

Time itself is a feature

of the created universe.

525

:

And he is above and beyond that, the

author of that, it's kind of like

526

:

if you were creating a video game, Or

you create a computer program, but in

527

:

this case, a video game, You have some

computer programming in college, right?

528

:

Yeah.

529

:

Yeah.

530

:

Yeah, that was your major.

531

:

All right, So you're creating a

video game and in this video game,

532

:

Things have to work a certain way.

533

:

So you're going to have the certain

physics of that universe, the

534

:

way things work in this universe.

535

:

When this happens and this happens.

536

:

And it was going to say

conditions, parameters.

537

:

But you yourself.

538

:

Aren't a part of that.

539

:

You can set conditions of

parameters within that video game.

540

:

That don't apply to you at all.

541

:

Because you are the creator,

you transcend those things.

542

:

And in the same way, I believe

that is a good analogy.

543

:

The guy could create things or parameters

and ways this universe works while

544

:

he himself is not bound by them.

545

:

Yeah.

546

:

And to kind of tie that into the

general theory of relativity, like

547

:

time in that video game, isn't going

to exist without the rest of the game.

548

:

Right.

549

:

You know what I mean?

550

:

Like.

551

:

The characters in that game, aren't

going to move around in time.

552

:

If the code hasn't been written

to actually have a game.

553

:

Okay.

554

:

I can see what you mean.

555

:

Maybe bad illustration, but no.

556

:

They can throw it.

557

:

You're just, you're just a lot

more proficient at understanding.

558

:

Computer creation that way.

559

:

So, yeah, I would be outside of the.

560

:

The game.

561

:

And.

562

:

I could pause the game and go

grab a sandwich or something.

563

:

'cause I'm out.

564

:

I mean, That's what God does.

565

:

I'm just saying like, I'm outside of it.

566

:

I don't interact according

to the laws of that game.

567

:

Right.

568

:

Or to give another analogy.

569

:

No analogy is perfect, but this one

also kind of helped illustrate the way

570

:

that creation works and the difference

between the creation and the creator.

571

:

I said that I'm writing a book.

572

:

And it's a book with a timeline.

573

:

There was a story I'm telling, right?

574

:

So maybe it's a story.

575

:

Of this family or this person

and happens over 30 or 40 years.

576

:

So I write a chapter about this person's

childhood and, I get to a certain

577

:

point, maybe they're eight to 13.

578

:

And at that point in time, Maybe

it said in a certain time periods.

579

:

So maybe that's 1993

when he's 13 years old.

580

:

At that point in time, I'm

like, okay, I've been writing

581

:

here for last three hours.

582

:

I'm going to stop.

583

:

And I stopped.

584

:

And I go and I make myself some coffee.

585

:

So we can think through some things more.

586

:

Uh, maybe answer a few

phone calls or emails.

587

:

And then.

588

:

Three hours later, I come back.

589

:

And maybe I'm in the middle of describing

a scene that goes minute by minute.

590

:

Now for me.

591

:

I'm not bound by the time I have this

story, I've taken a break from that.

592

:

I'm not in that timeline as it were.

593

:

I could begin writing a story.

594

:

As a teenager, right?

595

:

So I'm writing a story I'm 15.

596

:

And I'm writing a story

about someone like me.

597

:

So another teenager who's 15, right?

598

:

And I forget about the story.

599

:

Ah, this is stupid.

600

:

I've got other interests.

601

:

I'm interested in girls

and sports and all this.

602

:

And then 40 years later, When I'm 55.

603

:

I find that old story and

maybe one of my boxes, the.

604

:

The storage.

605

:

You know, the attic.

606

:

Uh, pick it up and I start

writing that story again.

607

:

And then the story of that boy

that I'm writing about is still 15.

608

:

Even though I've had this blog

period of say 40 or 50 years of gap.

609

:

So what I'm trying to

illustrate with this.

610

:

Is that.

611

:

There is a story inherent

to what I'm writing.

612

:

There's a timeline.

613

:

There's a way time works.

614

:

There's a sequence reality, but

that I am not bound to as a creator.

615

:

Because of that, I have

unique relationship.

616

:

To all that story and the

sequence reality of that.

617

:

And I could go back.

618

:

I don't know if this is the

way God's creation works.

619

:

But I can go back and revise

things that I wrote earlier.

620

:

Because I want to make that fit with

what comes in later in a better way.

621

:

But what are most fiction authors do this?

622

:

Hmm.

623

:

That may be going beyond a

little bit, what God does.

624

:

It's hard to say, but I

certainly think it's conceivable.

625

:

what you're getting at is,

an interaction between gods.

626

:

E each carnality and then

his sovereignty air power.

627

:

Right.

628

:

So there's an interconnectedness

in some of his characteristics.

629

:

Exactly.

630

:

And I think that's one area where

we can really think through this.

631

:

We tend to view God as knowing all

things before they're happened.

632

:

So.

633

:

Sometimes we feel then that

there are locked in as it were,

634

:

but that's not really true.

635

:

God doesn't know things

before they happen.

636

:

Because that's, again, a time

word, a sequence reality where

637

:

that he's not a part of, he

experiences them in a different way.

638

:

So.

639

:

His for knowledge, if you

want to use that word.

640

:

Doesn't lock things in.

641

:

It's more, he understands

things as they happen to us.

642

:

It seems like foreign

knowledge, but not to him.

643

:

Hm.

644

:

And the same way I think with prayer.

645

:

What are the big problems we have

with prayer is understanding how.

646

:

Our prayers could change something that

God has already set in place as it were.

647

:

Or how our prayers.

648

:

Of acumen could affect God's causality.

649

:

because within this world, two people.

650

:

How do I want to say this?

651

:

Within this world.

652

:

That's what we experienced.

653

:

When someone does something,

they're the one doing that?

654

:

No one else is doing that same thing,

except maybe come along to help them.

655

:

But We have to really step

back and say, but if God.

656

:

Is outside our normal way.

657

:

It can see me enough time and causation.

658

:

The maybe that's not true.

659

:

Maybe the causation of God and the

way he works within us and through us.

660

:

Is mysterious to us because we're

not in that realm of auto morality.

661

:

But it's only mysterious because we're

not there that because it's not real.

662

:

I'm not explaining that very well.

663

:

Oh, okay.

664

:

So you're saying.

665

:

For knowledge does not necessarily mean.

666

:

That it's locked in place.

667

:

Right?

668

:

It even got sovereignty does not.

669

:

Dissolve human free agency.

670

:

If we think of God is working

in time, the same way we do.

671

:

It is hard to understand how God can bring

about future results and future actions

672

:

while also allowing me real freedom.

673

:

But if we understand that

that's not how causation works.

674

:

Then I think we're left a little bit

with a mystery, but not a contradiction.

675

:

Um, and in the same way, You don't escape.

676

:

The problem of.

677

:

Human free will by moving away from

believing God, you make it worse because

678

:

if you move into atheism, Or naturalism.

679

:

You still have their problem,

but even it's even worse because.

680

:

What happens then?

681

:

Is that there really is

no room for human free.

682

:

Will.

683

:

On a totally consistent

naturalistic worldview.

684

:

And we've talked about that before.

685

:

It kind of ends up being a

little bit more deterministic.

686

:

Right, because what happens

within this universe is determined

687

:

by the laws of the universe.

688

:

The past is what produces The future.

689

:

Therefore, my present is based

upon my past by necessity,

690

:

by the laws of nature alone.

691

:

There's no agent outside of that.

692

:

there's no agent who can oppose that.

693

:

Kind of running out of words here.

694

:

Yeah.

695

:

Hmm.

696

:

So that's the idea and you can

look it up as so three or four.

697

:

We talked about that a little bit.

698

:

?

So you're saying that there is no.

699

:

Like our prayers can still.

700

:

Change the outcome of a situation.

701

:

Or God can still respond to our prayers

within our experience of causality.

702

:

I could see that being actually.

703

:

An encouragement to pray because it's

like, okay, God is outside of it.

704

:

He knows.

705

:

What's happening.

706

:

So I can go to God and

God can respond to me.

707

:

Right.

708

:

I think we should never limit.

709

:

Based upon our own understanding

of how causation might work.

710

:

Our appeals to God.

711

:

To intervene in certain ways and to help.

712

:

God is not someone.

713

:

So detached from the universe that

he does not respond to the people.

714

:

Within the universe.

715

:

In fact the opposite is true.

716

:

Just like his transcendence

allows him to be eminent.

717

:

Like light that emanates in every part

of this room, but it's not in one place.

718

:

So his eternity allows him

to be at all times equally.

719

:

He is always with us.

720

:

And he is with us everywhere.

721

:

That allows us to have great

competence that when we pray.

722

:

We're not directing thoughts to this guy.

723

:

We are directing our

thoughts and our appeals.

724

:

To a non bodily person who is here always

with us in every place that we are.

725

:

That's a humbling thought.

726

:

It's also a comforting thought.

727

:

Isn't it?

728

:

So the upshot of all this is that our

conception of God is way too small.

729

:

Usually when we think about

God and his eternity and his

730

:

infinitude and his transcendence

over all things, including time.

731

:

It should give us this desire to

know this God, as much as we can.

732

:

It should give us a competence.

733

:

But this God is worth attaching

ourselves to giving ourselves to.

734

:

It should give us this assurance.

735

:

That he cares about us because

he is right here with us.

736

:

Yeah, it's different than the conception

of God from, the Bruce almighty movie.

737

:

GFC that I did not see that.

738

:

So there's this scene.

739

:

Do you know the premise of it?

740

:

Yes.

741

:

So he's given all the power of God.

742

:

the only thing he can't do is.

743

:

counteract somebodies free will.

744

:

But at one point he gets a headache

cause he hears all these voices

745

:

in his head and it's prayers.

746

:

And so he's like, okay, well I

need a way of organizing these.

747

:

Let them all be letters.

748

:

And then his house like immediately

fills up with all the letters and.

749

:

And he's okay.

750

:

I needed to on email.

751

:

And so he gets, you know, all on his

computer and he's just working, typing

752

:

away at a million miles an hour, drinking

coffee, you know, with one habit typing

753

:

in another hand, clears out his inbox

and then immediately fills up again.

754

:

And it's just overwhelming.

755

:

that's a different model of thinking

about how God responds to prior.

756

:

Okay.

757

:

it's just making God busy.

758

:

God has limited time and well, if I'm

praying, but also everybody else and.

759

:

Nigeria and India and Russia and

Ireland are praying at the same time.

760

:

Like how's he ever going to hear?

761

:

My prayers, right.

762

:

Which feels very impersonal.

763

:

I know it's not right, but when

you see something like that, like

764

:

it can stick with you and sure.

765

:

Putting your subconscious, but,

it's very different than, okay.

766

:

God is present like light and emanating

here, and almost wants me to change

767

:

the format of my prayer to not just.

768

:

Ask God for things, but to try to.

769

:

Recognize his presence.

770

:

Yeah, that is already, I

mean, that's already true.

771

:

Right.

772

:

God is present in this moment.

773

:

And I can.

774

:

Recognize that.

775

:

And experience God right here and now.

776

:

Yeah.

777

:

And have companionship

and, Be in his presence.

778

:

or at least tune into his PR.

779

:

I mean, if we're always in his presence,

then the problem isn't necessarily.

780

:

when we don't sense, that's not him.

781

:

It's on us and I got

spiritual practice too.

782

:

Try to recognize that.

783

:

Should I turn on a radio.

784

:

You know, radio waves are always

here, but unless you stop and you

785

:

turn it on, then you I enjoy that.

786

:

The beautiful music

that's on the other end.

787

:

Yeah, that's a good analogy.

788

:

Thanks.

789

:

Bill Maher, who is a comedian,

but also in Melton, atheist.

790

:

one of his supposed to documentaries

where he interviews Christians.

791

:

And of course he chooses the most stupid.

792

:

And coherent was to showcase, um,

Anyway, he mocks the idea of a

793

:

God who could hear all the prayers

at once and respond to them.

794

:

That is a.

795

:

Immature understanding of who God is.

796

:

Christian thought has taught

for better part of:

797

:

The God is infinite, both

over space and over time.

798

:

And he is infinitely imminent

within both of those things as well.

799

:

So God does not have to take the

Heim to hear different prayers.

800

:

He doesn't process them.

801

:

sequentially like we do.

802

:

He is infinite in that degree

in a way we can't understand.

803

:

possibly.

804

:

He is infinite in that degree.

805

:

There is no limit.

806

:

And to understand him.

807

:

Like that movie, Bruce almighty,

it's actually an insult.

808

:

Yeah.

809

:

I'm into crisp understanding.

810

:

Yeah.

811

:

in that movie, at one point he gets

overwhelmed that he just says, control a.

812

:

Yeah, it was a select all.

813

:

And then yes.

814

:

And then have it happens because.

815

:

Everyone in a city, won the

lottery and You know, it's just.

816

:

So it is like, okay, how does

God think through, how does God

817

:

take time to process these prayer

requests and decide yes or no?

818

:

that's helpful because it's neat.

819

:

How something like God's eternity, which

can feel disconnected and hypothetical

820

:

at the beginning of the conversation.

821

:

Turns to something really practical that.

822

:

Is going to affect.

823

:

How we think about prayer and how we pray.

824

:

Yeah.

825

:

Yeah.

826

:

And I imagine a lot more.

827

:

My goodness, a lot more implications, a

bunch are coming into mind right now, but

828

:

that would take us down different paths.

829

:

But.

830

:

Yeah, how we think about God does.

831

:

Really matter..

832

:

Yeah, I think so.

833

:

I've seen in my own life, a lot of

the intellectual problems I've had.

834

:

Wash away.

835

:

What I understand.

836

:

And think about the bigger

picture of who God is.

837

:

In his infinity in his transcendence over

the way things work within this universe.

838

:

I can't explain them all,

but if I embrace it, yeah.

839

:

That this universe is created by

an infinite God who transcends it.

840

:

Then they begin to make sense to me.

841

:

at least I could be in

the place where I can say.

842

:

All right.

843

:

Just because I don't understand

something doesn't mean it's irrational.

844

:

Is simply means I'm not in the

epistemic position to understand it yet.

845

:

Yeah, just like a person in a two

dimensional world is not going

846

:

to understand how things work

in a three-dimensional world.

847

:

Yeah.

848

:

So.

849

:

Hmm.

850

:

That's what helps me.

851

:

Wow.

852

:

Well, thank you so much.

853

:

It's been a great discussion

on God's eternity and time.

854

:

And.

855

:

Theoretical physics.

856

:

And a prayer.

857

:

And Bruce all buddy and Bruce almighty.

858

:

Thank you so much.

859

:

My pleasure.

860

:

Bye.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Philosophy and Faith
Philosophy and Faith
Helping you navigate your intellectual/spiritual journey

Listen for free