Episode 32

Understanding Socrates (The History of Philosophy, part 11)

Socrates, Plato, and the Legacy of Greek Philosophy

In this episode, the Daniel and Nathan return after a brief hiatus to explore the life and philosophy of Socrates and his profound impact on his pupil Plato. They discuss the Socratic method of questioning, its influence on Western thought, and how it shaped Plato's works and ideas, particularly in his early dialogues. The dialogue also delves into the historical context of Socrates' life, his opposition to the Sophists, concepts like absolute truth, justice, and the philosopher king. Additionally, the episode examines Socrates' influence on early Christian theology through Plato and Aristotle, the spread of Hellenistic culture, and its enduring impact on contemporary interpretations of the Bible.

00:00 Introduction and Catching Up

01:43 Transition to Socrates Discussion

02:36 Socrates: Historical and Literary Figure

05:16 Socrates' Influence on Plato

07:48 Socratic Method and Dialogues

12:43 Socrates' Life and Death

16:11 Exploring Plato's Socratic Method

16:21 The Immortality and Transmigration of the Soul

16:56 Socrates' Dialogue on Justice

21:13 Socrates' Intellectual Humility

22:15 Plato's Philosophical Contributions

25:05 Upcoming Discussions on Plato and Aristotle

26:05 The Influence of Greek Thought on Christian Theology

Transcript
Speaker:

Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio):

And we are back.

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Sweet.

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Yeah, It's been a while I've

had a trip and then I had COVID.

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So we've had a little gap there

in our recording schedule.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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How are you doing?

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How were, how was the trip?

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It was wonderful.

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Went out to Tahoe.

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Visit with my sister and

did some incredible hiking.

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They had the best hiking.

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That really the best.

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The best I've been to.

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So for those of you who don't know,

Daniel is an avid outdoors man.

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Uh, that's probably overselling

that, but I do like the hot and.

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And then we're also going to have

to work on Our production schedule.

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When you go on maternity leave soon.

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Yeah.

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Paternity leave maternity leave.

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I'm not having the baby, my wife

is, but I get the benefits of having

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the baby without the delivery.

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So.

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So you'll be off like a month.

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Yeah.

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So we were just talking in.

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Uh, no updates on what

that's gonna look like yet.

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Still planning to record, but

may have some other cohost.

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I had a substitute substitute.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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So we'll start working on that.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, were the, were the

trees changing colors yet?

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Tahoe.

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So the thing is out there, they

have evergreen of different kinds.

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And then they have, um,

Aspen, which turned yellow.

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So there were some places where they were

turning yellow and it was very beautiful.

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So you've got this.

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Not like it's Midwest or new England

where you've got this rainbow.

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And treats green and yellow.

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Uh, but essentially very

beautiful in this, in.

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It's own way.

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Nice.

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Yeah.

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in.

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You sent some pictures and

there was, there was red.

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And there was blue, but

just not in a tree so much.

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Yeah.

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There was this grass or shrub

that turn this bright red.

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I read up in the high mountains.

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Got some good pictures of that.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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But we're not here to talk

about that, I suppose.

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No, but it is fun.

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It is.

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I love that changing

colors and everything.

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So I do two.

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We're here to talk about Socrates, who.

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Socrates.

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Okay.

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You heard of him.

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I, I believe I have heard of him.

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You were just talking about a movie

bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

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Yeah, I think he's, he's one of

the main characters, you know,

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next to bill and Ted, but he's

part of the excellent adventure.

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So crates as they call

him, they call him soakers.

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I have not seen that particular treasure.

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Treasure is absolutely

the correct word for that.

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Okay.

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I'll have to check it out sometime.

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That should've been your homework.

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The episode is I should

have I missed that.

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Seeing how the pop culture

reference actually matches the.

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historical, evidence.

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Okay.

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So again, I haven't seen the movie, but

it sounds like it's kind of analogist

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what actually happened in Greece.

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Because Socrates became more of a

literary figure than a historical figure.

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At least that's what's most important

or what we remember him for.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, he was a, he was a real guy.

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He wasn't a made up dude, but.

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We primarily remember him for the

way that Plato is going to use him as

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a literary figure in his dialogues.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So why don't you frame

this for us a little bit.

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You mentioned Plato.

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So what's the relationship.

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between them.

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And what time and context are

we kind of thinking about here?

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All right.

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All this is now going to be an Athens.

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Okay.

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So all the other flossers we've

talked about have been in Greece or

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Greek areas, Greek controlled areas.

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But now it's going to be more

centered for awhile on Athens.

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And we're not talking about

Athens, Georgia ladies, and,

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you know, no, I agree sexually.

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So all the philosophers we

have talked about before are

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often labeled in the history of

philosophy as the pre Socratics.

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So that tells you right off the bat that.

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Hey, someone's here.

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That's making a difference.

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There are actually three philosophers

that are tied very closely together.

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Historically as well as dramatically.

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And that is a Socrates

Plato and Aristotle.

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Now of those three.

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Socrates did not write one line, at

least not that we have any record of.

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But he was the tutor

or the mentor to Plato.

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And then Plato is the mentor

or the tutor to Aristotle.

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So they've got a line age of three.

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Incredibly important names.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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And what timeframe.

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I was just hoping you

knew to ask that actually.

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So Socrates 4 69 to 3 99.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Plato 4 27 To 3 47.

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And then Aristotle 3 84 to 3 22 BC.

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And then Aristotle supposed statements.

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People.

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Do you know who that was?

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Aristotle's what most famous people.

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It wasn't a philosopher.

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Um, Aristotle's most famous pupil.

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It would have been St.

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Thomas Aquinas.

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I know you're off a few centuries there.

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Um, Alexander the great.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah, so.

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Not a philosopher, but I'm sure he

picked up some philosophy there.

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But you like my answer though?

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Uh, those.

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It's pretty, it's pretty clever.

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That was.

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Um, anyway.

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So there's again, about 40

years separating each one.

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Okay.

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give or take.

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And Socrates did not start a school.

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Play-Doh started a school.

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Aristotle started his own.

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Socrates did not write anything.

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But he had a profound effect on Plato and

Plato and Aristotle are the two biggest.

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Influencers in Western thought

or at least Western philosophy.

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And arguably Western thought

as a whole, I would think.

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So the reason we want

to talk about Socrates.

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Is because.

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Of that line, age he becomes a very

important figure in Western thought.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Wow.

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Cool.

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So let's get into a

little bit of his thought.

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All right, let's do it.

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So last episode, we talked about

this office and we mentioned that.

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Socrates was there.

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Uh, antagonists, he was opposed to them.

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And so for those who haven't caught that

yet, Give us a little definition of it.

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They gotta go back.

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Let's do the whole thing.

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Make them do their homework.

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Yeah, that's right.

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No, um, The Sophos were traveling.

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Advisors to especially young

men who are trying to advance.

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So they had a philosophy, but it was

basically one of self-improvement.

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It was focused on.

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well you should do, how

you should advance in life.

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So there were philosophical

principles that they taught.

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But for the most part.

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They also practiced and sometimes

taught the idea that there was.

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It's not an absolute truth that

you would attach yourself to,

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or that you could even discover.

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So the goal of life is to get ahead

to understand what you should do.

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And Socrates was.

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Diametrically opposed to the idea

that you can't know absolute truth.

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He says it is unacceptable

to hold that position.

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Both pragmatically because of the way it

turns you into someone who's just out.

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For the next buck or personal advancement.

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That's one dot philosophy is about.

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But also because to say there is no

absolute truth is to commit a very

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fundamental self-defeating argument.

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Because you're making a true statement.

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And at the same time, that

true statements undermines the

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ability to make true statements.

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And we talked about that last episode.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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So he is going to hold to the fact.

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that there is absolute truth.

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Yes.

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And that that shapes.

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What people do in their life.

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He is, but paradoxically,

he's also going to say.

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I don't really know anything.

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I don't know the truth about these things.

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So he's also going to adopt.

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Uh, studied stance of ignorance.

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Now what I mean by that is.

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His whole shtick as a word.

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Is too.

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Say, Hey, I don't know what,

what justice is, right?

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I don't know what beauty is.

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Right.

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I don't know what goodness is.

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Would you teach me?

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And so he'll talk to somebody else again,

this is at least as Plato describes him.

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And then as they try to

describe those things, he shows.

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That they don't know either, even though

they're using the terms all the time.

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How does he child that they don't know.

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by the method of dialogue.

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So we would call a Socratic

dialogue today in his honor.

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Gotcha.

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So he's just, he's just asking

questions for the most part.

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And to dig down deeper.

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Yes.

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Until there's some sort of

contradiction or something.

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In which case he slaps in the face

and says, hi soccer and walks away.

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That's exactly what happens more or less.

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Uh, yeah, so.

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What he's known for.

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It's not in his specific

doctrine that he taught.

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Although he did believe in

absolute truth and goodness.

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He was not known for any

doctrines he taught, but rather.

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His influence on Play-Doh.

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His life and how he

lived it and how he died.

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And the thirdly, his method,

the Socratic dialogue.

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So we talked a little bit about his

influence on play to look, maybe

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let's just explore that for a second.

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Sure.

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Socrates is going to be the key

figure in most of Plato's dialogues.

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It's not the case.

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However, that Plato is describing.

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In actual conversation

Plato is using him.

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As a literary figure for his own purposes.

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Most philosophers or historians.

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Feel however.

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That at least in the

earlier dialogues of Plato.

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that he is.

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More or less describing what,

what Socrates actually was

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doing and how he thought.

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So they would view him as at

least in the early dialogues.

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Yes.

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There.

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They're worse at fiction

in the sense that.

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This conversation was not

probably, probably it's demography.

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You've recorded that way.

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Um, but they, more or less

capture what Socrates was doing.

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And the later dialogues, most historians

feel Plato's doing his own thing.

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But he's still using Socrates

as a mouthpiece as it were.

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I see.

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So He becomes more of a legendary

character kind of, I guess.

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In one sense without all

the miracles and all that.

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Usually go with legends.

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so he's got this method, Plato records.

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It he's an actual guy.

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Early on those.

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dialogues.

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Probably pretty closely emulate what.

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Socrates is doing later on.

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Probably mostly just.

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Aristotle taking the, taking the

reins and run it with Play-Doh.

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Plato.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Now.

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I think also because of that.

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That dynamic.

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That whole way that Socrates, when a bow.

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That is my questioning.

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And then questioning the question or

the answers, you know, ad infinitum.

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That kind of set Plato up or the way

that he would write his philosophy.

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Because his writing.

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It's all going to be in

this dialogical form.

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Or dialectical for more technically.

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And Plato has incredible influence

for many reasons, but one of them

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is the style that he's going to use.

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It's going to be these

dialogues and they're brilliant.

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They are so much easier to read.

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They're incredibly more engaging.

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Than almost any philosopher

who's ever written.

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Yeah, I'm kind of

surprised that there isn't.

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More of that style of writing more.

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I have to, I mean, you, you see.

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You can just see the, the

natural rhythm of a conversation

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happening, natural counterpoints

happening and that kind of a thing.

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Yeah.

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I think the only.

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The big name philosopher who does this

consistently and well would be David Hume.

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In English men.

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And that was almost

:

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Yeah.

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Have you had Peter crafts work or.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, he does.

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He does it brilliantly.

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Yeah.

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Uh, he's, pretty good.

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Yeah, he, he gets the memo there.

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Yeah, and I I've read some of

his work and Like you said, it's,

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easy to read and understand.

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And almost a good like reference buck for.

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I mean, you can, you can see the arguments

and you can see them unfold just in a

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very natural kind of conversational way.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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I lost my train of thought

there for a second.

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So most philosophers.

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Are very difficult to read.

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And the secondary sources that

people writing about them.

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Are easier because they

kind of summarizing explain.

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With Play-Doh.

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It's the opposite.

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If you want to understand,

play to just read Plato.

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You know, don't read so much about

what people are saying about him.

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Because.

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None of them are going to be as

consistent and engaging as Plato himself.

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Hmm.

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So anyway, so there's that

influence on Play-Doh.

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In theme, but also in style and form.

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And you still see that just in

the way that conversations happen

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or dialogue happens nowadays.

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I mean, that's part of the

influence you feel like of Socrates.

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Um, maybe, I mean, Um, obviously there.

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Pretty far removed.

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I suppose you could trace that

thread if you really wanted to.

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So, okay.

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So.

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I want to talk about his life.

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Let's talk about his life.

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All right.

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We don't know much about it.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Next.

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We know more about his death.

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So, what we do know of his life is that

he apparently went around Athens, just

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pastoring people with these questions.

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Uh, showing them that they really didn't

know what they were talking about.

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Sounds like a good job.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it was a bit of a gadfly.

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Um, He's described by.

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Uh, another writer.

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Not Play-Doh as, as being a

gadfly, but also being kind

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of, Ugly and, uh, obtrusive.

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and.

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Lacking in social graces.

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Don't know if that's really true or that.

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Um, but we do have a pretty

good understanding of how.

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We met his death.

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Because of some of the

things, the way he did things.

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He stirred up a lot of annoyance

and even anger at people.

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And people in Athens,

especially the powerful.

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Because he often show that they had

no idea what they were talking about.

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So he was condemned to death.

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And the charges were basically corrupting

youth by not honoring the Greek gods.

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Now when that happened.

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And again, this is going to

be an influence on Play-Doh

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because he was there.

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This occurs in a.

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Society.

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That's a democracy.

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Okay.

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Athens is a democracy by this point.

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Probably you could argue

the first real democracy.

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on a lease to the city,

a large city wide scale.

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And they condemn him to death.

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His hero.

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The one person that he

looks up to as being.

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someone who is actually seeking truth.

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No.

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This is a condemnation.

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of death, but it was also kind

of understood that he could.

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He could get away.

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But just.

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You know, taking them out of, out of bath,

it's taken himself out of, out of Greece.

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It would not have been difficult to do.

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He had that offer.

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But he chose to stay that

tins and to drink the hemlock.

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Because he wanted to show.

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That the chargers were false, that

he was actually obedient to the city

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government, that he would follow the laws.

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He was not disrupting public order

or the stability of the city.

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And also to show that he

wasn't, afraid of death.

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Hm.

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So there is this very moving scene.

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Plato describes.

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About the trial.

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And the death of Socrates.

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And his younger students

are gathered round weeping.

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And he gently rebukes them saying.

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Look at it.

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You don't get it.

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This is a good thing for me.

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My soul was like imprisoned in this

body and now it will soon be free.

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I don't have to fear this death and

I don't want you to fear it either.

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And then he drinks that and walk, it dies.

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So he becomes the first martyr.

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For philosophy.

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Um, again, it's a very moving scene.

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It has profound effect on Plato.

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In particular, he, uh, he

really distrusted maybe even

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hated that might be too strong.

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A word.

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Uh, democracies from that point on.

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And so he's going to build

his own political theory in

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the book called the Republic.

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And it will not be a democracy.

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Hmm.

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It will be the rule of people

who know what they're doing.

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A philosopher Kings, not this.

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Crowd that gives way to

ignorance and mob mentality.

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Hmm.

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So that's also part of

Socrates's influences the way.

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That he saw the truth

and he died for truth.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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So that's pretty intense.

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Yeah, that is, that is, And

then what's the other thing I

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said we were talking about here.

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Plato.

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The Socratic method.

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one theme you can already see

that he did seem to uphold.

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At least Plato understood him this way.

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Is the.

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Immortality of the soul or even

the trans migration of the soul.

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And mortality just means

solo die, trans migration.

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Would be like reincarnation that

it migrates to a different form.

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A different physical form.

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And that's going to come

into play Plato's philosophy.

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Big time.

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And then.

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I was going to read some,

uh, one of the dialogues.

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to illustrate.

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The way.

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He utilized the Socratic method.

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So I'll do that.

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It'll probably take five or seven

minutes, but do you have any questions?

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No.

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Yeah, I think it's good.

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Okay.

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So this is in the Republic.

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And.

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Just give a little background.

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Plato's writing this again.

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This probably did not happen.

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At least not quite this way.

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But in this dialogue, Socrates is meeting

these other people and they're talking.

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And he begins to question

them in this way.

463

:

And this goes on for a long time and I

have to read the whole thing, obviously.

464

:

But there's a wealthy man.

465

:

He began to ask him about him and about.

466

:

The blessing to his wealth,

you know, what does it mean

467

:

to, to be blessed in this way?

468

:

And he gives an answer this wealthy man.

469

:

about hope.

470

:

Hope he says cherishes the soul of

him who lives in justice and holiness.

471

:

And as the nurse of his age and

the companion of his journey.

472

:

And.

473

:

Socrates says how admirable are his words?

474

:

But he says Because Ceridian justice.

475

:

Okay.

476

:

So in other words, So you

brought this word justice, right?

477

:

So this is Socrates.

478

:

Okay.

479

:

Yeah.

480

:

Uh, what is it?

481

:

to speak the truth and pay your debts.

482

:

That's what he applied in.

483

:

Previous paragraph.

484

:

No.

485

:

No more than this.

486

:

And even when there are not exceptions.

487

:

I suppose that our friend, when in his

right mind has deposited weapons with me.

488

:

And then he asked them for them.

489

:

When he is not in his right mind.

490

:

should I give the bat to him?

491

:

No one would say that the art or

the should be right in doing so

492

:

any more that then they would say

that I always speak the truth.

493

:

To one who is in his condition.

494

:

you're quite right.

495

:

He replied.

496

:

But then I said, speaking

the truth and pain.

497

:

Your debts is not the correct

definition of justice.

498

:

Quite correct, Socrates.

499

:

And then one of the character files out, I

fear said suffer less that I must go now.

500

:

I have to look after the sacrifices.

501

:

And I hand a word, the argument

to Paula Marcus, and the company.

502

:

It's got Paula Marcus, your air.

503

:

I said to be sure he answered.

504

:

And then he went away

laughing to the sacrifice.

505

:

So this guy's like, yeah,

I know where this is going.

506

:

I don't want any part of this.

507

:

You know, I've seen this.

508

:

This worked out.

509

:

So he looks to Polacco.

510

:

tell me then that air of the argument.

511

:

What did they mean?

512

:

About justice.

513

:

He said that the repayment

of a debt is just.

514

:

And insane.

515

:

So he appears to me to be right.

516

:

So that's his definition of justice.

517

:

You give to people what's due

to them, or you pay them back.

518

:

And Socrates says, well, I should

be sorry to doubt the word it's

519

:

such a wise and inspired man.

520

:

I think his tongue is in this cheek

here, but his meaning though, probably

521

:

clear to you is not very clear to me.

522

:

Per, certainly he does not mean as

we were just now saying that I are to

523

:

return a deposit of weapons or have

anything else to one who asks a bit

524

:

when he's not in his right census.

525

:

And yet.

526

:

Uh, deposit light that cannot

be denied to be a debt.

527

:

True.

528

:

So here you begin the site credit

dire while the other person says true.

529

:

Then when a person who asked

me is not in the right mind.

530

:

I am by no means to make the return.

531

:

Certainly not.

532

:

So when somebody has said that the

repayment of a debt was justice.

533

:

He did not mean to include that case.

534

:

Certainly not pre, he thinks

that a friend not always to do

535

:

good to a friend and never evil.

536

:

You mean then that the return

of a deposit of gold, which is

537

:

to the injury of the receiver.

538

:

If the two parties are friends,

Is not the repayment of the debt.

539

:

Is that what you would imagine him to say?

540

:

Yes.

541

:

And our enemies also to

receive what we owe them.

542

:

To be sure.

543

:

There to receive.

544

:

Uh, we owe them That is to say evil.

545

:

So I'm just giving an example.

546

:

Green, cut it off here.

547

:

It goes on a long ways.

548

:

His point is again, going back

to this definition of justice.

549

:

Okay.

550

:

This is what you say it is, but

let's explore this a little bit.

551

:

Certainly you don't mean

this or this or this or this.

552

:

And by the end of this, you realize.

553

:

That the person who's using these terms.

554

:

So freely has no idea what they mean.

555

:

And Socrates says, I don't know either,

but at least I know that I don't know.

556

:

Hmm.

557

:

So, and he just does that by just trying

to make a mock of the conversation and.

558

:

What's he what's he like.

559

:

What's this point.

560

:

That's what they wanted to know.

561

:

And that's why they got

really annoyed with him.

562

:

But I think his point

is basically twofold.

563

:

Number one.

564

:

Is to get some intellectual

humility going on here.

565

:

So that we understand that we're using

terms without thinking of them very well.

566

:

And really we should be much more

cautious in how we're using terms.

567

:

And I think the second point.

568

:

Is that is by thinking through and

examining things like this in this way.

569

:

They really going to make any progress,

actually knowing what justice might be.

570

:

So at the end of the conversation,

did they get to an idea or

571

:

concept of what justice is?

572

:

No.

573

:

And that's usually the case with his

dialogues is that they are inconclusive.

574

:

But at least they've shed off some of the.

575

:

Some of what it doesn't mean, I guess.

576

:

Yes.

577

:

Huh.

578

:

They've cleared the woods so

that they can begin building.

579

:

Yeah.

580

:

And in this case, Plato is

going to be the builder.

581

:

So Plato's going to,

Plato's gonna pick up on it.

582

:

After having.

583

:

paved the way a little bit with right.

584

:

Clearing the woods.

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

So in some of the dialogues, then

again, the later ones, and they're

587

:

not quite all this back and forth.

588

:

But you do get a more positive sense in,

and of course, Plato is going to develop.

589

:

Not just this negative style.

590

:

But he is going to develop

a very broad, expansive.

591

:

Imaginative of metaphysic as well

as the theory of knowledge, as

592

:

well as the theory of ethics.

593

:

So.

594

:

Socrates in that way as a

transitional figure towards him.

595

:

But also.

596

:

Teaches him.

597

:

the way forward is by examining and

thinking through things as it were.

598

:

Hmm.

599

:

So Socrates.

600

:

Does believe.

601

:

In.

602

:

what, what was the

language we used earlier?

603

:

Some sort of absolute truth.

604

:

Yes.

605

:

But he also doesn't believe that he

or anybody else can really know it.

606

:

Well, I think that might be too strong.

607

:

he would say.

608

:

I don't know.

609

:

What things are like, I don't know

what justice is, so I want to learn.

610

:

I don't know what it is, but

you certainly don't either.

611

:

So.

612

:

But I don't think he'd say

it's impossible to know it.

613

:

He would just say our stance

should be that we should.

614

:

Not use it so flippantly and

shallowly, we should seek to

615

:

think through and understand it.

616

:

I got you.

617

:

I got you.

618

:

But he doesn't get there, which is

interesting, at least in Play-Doh.

619

:

Well, again, not all of them, but

again, Plato is going to give.

620

:

A very descriptive.

621

:

And positive affirmation of what justice

is, what good is, what beauty is.

622

:

So the earlier dialogues are much more

like this and some of the later ones are.

623

:

I can see.

624

:

Yeah, I can see a little bit differently.

625

:

I can see why people would think that

the earlier ones were more likely

626

:

authentic if they shift in that

sort of direction of becoming more

627

:

positive, especially if we know that.

628

:

He got killed for this kind

of stuff by the public.

629

:

I mean, even in that scene,

you see that the one guy.

630

:

Kind of piece out and like, yeah, no.

631

:

Yeah.

632

:

So.

633

:

That is his life.

634

:

And that's his influence.

635

:

Again, he did not write anything.

636

:

So it's not like who

can analyze his writing.

637

:

We only see him through

the eyes of Play-Doh.

638

:

And a couple other writers of that time.

639

:

Oh, who wrote where it plays?

640

:

He was a figure and some of those.

641

:

But.

642

:

He was able to.

643

:

Really pave the way.

644

:

In many ways.

645

:

Not just in his form, but many of

his ideas or Plato and Aristotle.

646

:

Hm.

647

:

But that's gotta be hard to see

that distinction of where it.

648

:

Socrates and, and where Play-Doh starts.

649

:

Yeah.

650

:

It is.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

It's one of those areas where.

653

:

Historians who specialize in

the field, argue about it.

654

:

Yeah.

655

:

So that tells you that.

656

:

It's not a clear cut answer.

657

:

Hmm.

658

:

But either way, it's still formative for.

659

:

For us now and kind of be.

660

:

And downstream of it.

661

:

Right.

662

:

So.

663

:

Yep.

664

:

And now next time.

665

:

We're going to begin talking about Plato.

666

:

We may have a few.

667

:

Episodes that aren't on topic

of the history of philosophy.

668

:

I'm going to work that out

a little bit this week.

669

:

But Plato is going to be.

670

:

arguably.

671

:

The most influential.

672

:

Philosopher, possibly thinker.

673

:

in the Western world.

674

:

At least in there.

675

:

Greek and the European and

therefore the American mindset.

676

:

Aristotle.

677

:

coming right after him.

678

:

I mean, you could argue about which

one is more able to essential.

679

:

Aristotle was much broader.

680

:

But Plato is the one who.

681

:

Synthesized all the issues of the

previous, the pre-Socratic philosophers.

682

:

Gave his own original synthesis and

interpretation and advancement upon that.

683

:

And then Aristotle corrected and built

upon that, but it was Plato who was

684

:

really the original, great loss over.

685

:

Wow.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

That's a lot and that's, that's exciting

to piece out over a number of episodes.

688

:

So yeah, that'd be good.

689

:

Yeah.

690

:

And especially because

Plato had incredible.

691

:

Profound influence on Christian theology.

692

:

Christian theology is

primarily going to be formed.

693

:

In his essentials.

694

:

In the second through fourth centuries.

695

:

And during that time period.

696

:

Aristotle's not really on the scene.

697

:

Because his writings.

698

:

Uh, our not extent.

699

:

That means that the people

who are doing the Christian.

700

:

Philosophy don't have access to them.

701

:

They're not going to be

rediscovered until centuries later.

702

:

And the Thomas Aquinas is going

to be the one who synthesize.

703

:

Sizes.

704

:

Christianity.

705

:

With Aristotle.

706

:

But that's a Christianity that's

already been synthesized to

707

:

profoundly influenced by Play-Doh.

708

:

So Thomas is Aristotle's.

709

:

Yeah, he is in the line.

710

:

Joke now make sense for everybody.

711

:

It didn't make sense earlier.

712

:

Yes exactly.

713

:

So early Christian theology

was a combination primarily of.

714

:

Biblical revelation and Plato.

715

:

Especially as Plato is going to

be modified by the Neoplatonist.

716

:

We'll get to that.

717

:

And that includes most of the early

Christian theologians, including,

718

:

and especially you guys do.

719

:

And then.

720

:

Aquinas is going to.

721

:

You know, he's going to come along

almost a thousand years after Christ.

722

:

Yeah.

723

:

And also then begins to sizing it

with Aristotle, but that's again,

724

:

a theology that's already formed.

725

:

Bias at this is with Play-Doh.

726

:

And so you really can't

understand Christian theology

727

:

without understanding Plato.

728

:

And that's part of the

whole point of this.

729

:

Yes.

730

:

This podcast.

731

:

And I think that that's

an, a really important.

732

:

Thing for everybody to understand

is the way that, um, You know,

733

:

you mentioned Alexander, the great

being one of the apprentices or

734

:

disciples or mentees of Aristotle.

735

:

And when the Greek empire expands.

736

:

Exactly.

737

:

You know, then.

738

:

Then Greek influence and then Roman

influence is all over the place.

739

:

But as the gospel spreads

out of Israel into.

740

:

Rome and Corinth and Desola Nika.

741

:

Uh, nice places.

742

:

There's there's prevalent Greek thought.

743

:

And so that's the,

Hellenistic influence, right?

744

:

Exactly.

745

:

Hellenistic for those who aren't

familiar is just another term

746

:

for Greek culture and language.

747

:

And again, you're exactly

what I'm glad you brought.

748

:

Got that out.

749

:

Through Alexander the great,

and those who came after him.

750

:

Greek.

751

:

Influence thought categories and language.

752

:

Spread throughout the entire middle

Eastern and Mediterranean basin.

753

:

So it's not an intentional move to

fuse Greek thought with Hebrew thought.

754

:

It's the natural theology that's

happening out of these contexts

755

:

that are Greek and Jewish.

756

:

Yes.

757

:

Now, some of them were more specific and

intentional the way that some thinkers

758

:

were doing that more intentionally,

but you couldn't get away from it.

759

:

So you've got, I mean, while

Paul is that in essence?

760

:

I mean, trained as a, you're trained as a.

761

:

Pharisee, right.

762

:

And then going and trying to do the work

of theology in these contexts that are

763

:

super heavily influenced by Greek thought.

764

:

Yes.

765

:

Yeah.

766

:

And he, was born.

767

:

not in Judea, but in a.

768

:

place that would be.

769

:

Greek Roman influenced.

770

:

So again, even when the Romans

come along, They don't really

771

:

change the categories of thought.

772

:

Or even that much from Greek philosophy.

773

:

They're basically Latinized everything.

774

:

They even take the Greek gods, even the

Latin names, they do the same thing.

775

:

With most of the.

776

:

Philosophical and religious categories

of thought that the Greeks had.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

And so then, I mean, when you've got.

779

:

Guys who come later down the road, like

you're talking about with a Gustin.

780

:

So He's Greek right now.

781

:

He's Roman.

782

:

He's wrong.

783

:

he grew up in the Roman empire.

784

:

Right.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

But where did, where was he?

787

:

He's in, uh, he's in Africa, right?

788

:

Well, He settled In HIPAA,

which was in north Africa.

789

:

Yeah.

790

:

But he's got influences

from other places as well.

791

:

But then he becomes.

792

:

Christian and he reads.

793

:

That.

794

:

Hebrew scripture and even the

new Testament and everything.

795

:

And then he's.

796

:

He's doing theology from his.

797

:

You know, from the way

he's been trained with it.

798

:

Roman and Greek influence and

then the Christian influence.

799

:

So right.

800

:

And he was a Roman and Greek

philosopher or thinker.

801

:

Before he was a Christian.

802

:

So he's going to.

803

:

Think in those terms by default.

804

:

Yeah.

805

:

So, I mean, just piecing out

the location of this and.

806

:

it's clear to see the way that,

Christianity has been influenced by this.

807

:

And a lot of the, a lot of the

Western world that has been shaped

808

:

by Christian thought and, you know,

Christians going and trying to

809

:

evangelize in that kind of thing.

810

:

So, yeah.

811

:

So it's, it's feeling very weighty.

812

:

Now getting into Plato.

813

:

And Aristotle seeing, okay, this is,

this is really helpful to understand

814

:

Christian thought, especially

in, you know, new Testament.

815

:

Yeah.

816

:

So.

817

:

And that's kind of the burden

that gave birth to this podcast.

818

:

Yeah, it's this, isn't

just an academic exercise.

819

:

I feel in many people, I think.

820

:

it's not my own viewpoint, but.

821

:

The church has been profoundly

influenced by Greek thought.

822

:

Which influences the very way that we.

823

:

Americans.

824

:

Interpret the Bible.

825

:

We think we're coming at it

from a blank slate or we're not.

826

:

We're coming through it from a cultural

viewpoint that has been profoundly

827

:

shaped by the people we're talking about.

828

:

And unless we see that we're

not going to be able to discern

829

:

what's good and bad in that.

830

:

Yeah.

831

:

That's.

832

:

That's what's bugging me.

833

:

So you're want to, examine the lens?

834

:

Through which we understand Christianity.

835

:

Put that.

836

:

Yeah.

837

:

Yeah.

838

:

And that's a tough, thing to do,

but I think that this is helping,

839

:

I mean, just, seeing, okay.

840

:

Some.

841

:

This is, this is the groundwork

that's being laid here.

842

:

And you talk about the way Christianity

is affected Western society.

843

:

And then.

844

:

I mean, I think with political

theory, NCN how Plato's.

845

:

Going to affect it.

846

:

Like that's going to be huge.

847

:

Yeah.

848

:

You're welcome.

849

:

So that's the next, how many?

850

:

Four or five?

851

:

Three to five seven.

852

:

I haven't, quite mapped it

out yet, but it's going to

853

:

be a number of episodes here.

854

:

Yeah.

855

:

I mean, you could do an unlimited

about almost, but we'll try

856

:

to keep it to three to five.

857

:

I think I'm Plato.

858

:

And then.

859

:

Several on Aristotle.

860

:

And then we'll come back to

Plato in a sense, cause what to

861

:

talk about Neoplatonism . Yeah.

862

:

Well, cool.

863

:

All right.

864

:

Well, until then, Thanks for helping out.

865

:

Thanks Daniel.

866

:

See.

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